A Path to Truth

Notes From Wednesday's Circle... • One is this thing on the word “understand”- we were having a discussion about it- a friend told me about the word Upanishad which literally means to sit near or under the feet of the teacher- so to understand you have to under sit- to be humble and sit. About lying- I too made a decision not to lie only last year. And recently I went to return a web camera because my wife didn't like it she wanted a different resolution. And I was going to the store I was trying to think of what excuse to give to the guy- I thought I could tell them oh this is for a PC I want it for a Mac- and finally I went there deciding to tell the truth- my wife doesn’t like it. I returned the camera ad the guy didn't ask me anything! But taking the decision to tell the truth made me feel so good even though I didn't exercise it. About the quote- in my past I used to be very critical and after reading Krishnamurti, I told my friends that every single page seemed to be the same content he keeps saying the same thing- which is Nothing. Basically he doesn't offer content or knowledge he keeps asking you to listen to what's happening now to the present- why live in the future and he used to frustrate me a lot because when you begin inquiry you want a How. The way I understand Krishnamurti is that he's not saying don't meditate or have practices - it's perfectly valid- what he's saying is don’t create a path out of it. For instance if I read a book I need to be able to convert what I read into my experience not turn it into a conditioning- I need to use it to uncondition myself. I need to know how to read how to interpret etc to do this I should have gone to school- all this could be turned into a path unless I use them dynamically. So what he's saying is use things but don't convert them into standardized truth. • Don 't let the path become a pathology. • Truth and Path are the words that came up for me. As far as truth goes for some reason I went back to some times that I lied or didn't say the truth and I think it came out of fear. And it's very strong I can remember the sensation I had as soon as I lied and more than anything its a physiological sensation in my body something doesn't feel right is almost aching in a way. It was amazing to look back and think about how even if I said something- the body was saying something different like it doesn’t agree. And I know I made multiple promises not to lie ever again since I was a kid probably and as I get older I am able to understand what the responsibility means instead of just making promises. Path was going to come up in one way or another because the last couple of weeks have been very intense- I am in the process of putting together something that has been my dream for many years and it’s actually happening this Friday and I kept going back to the idea that there is the goal and I think maybe that's what he meant- there is the goal and if we get focused on that we miss what's along the way- for me the path is the truth. The little steps that you take, as you go along are as important. Every step is not just as important but as pleasant if I look at it a little differently I can actually enjoy this. So thank you everyone. • Similarly around the same age I was considering giving up lying and the reason I didn't was- it's like the other monkish things you can step out of society, not lie and do all that- but when you're in society- I think sometimes lying is about not sweating the small stuff and cutting through bureaucracy, for example saving four hours instead of wasting mine and other people's time when I need to change my course at school for example- I'll have to see... • I didn't quite understand it and the word that I kept focusing on was fulfillment- and if you don't do anything how can you be fulfilled? So I'm one of those people who gave up on this quote- and for the record I haven't given up lying. • Maybe we should be following a path of truth instead of to truth- I don't know where Truth is as a destination but as a journey it makes a lot of sense. You have a path of truth that leads to some deeper realizations. • I've spoken truth always for convenience not for any secret reasons. There’s a sloka that says if you speak the truth and the listener wants to hear it then it is sweet but if they don't then it is bitter and the person asks how do I compromise? I like the response because it focused on- with what intentions do you speak? If you speak the truth with the intention of not benefiting everybody then silence is okay you don't have to lie. A deeper observation- when you feel the other person is lying if I get very sensitive I realize the person is not lying to me- they are not telling the truth to themselves. So I can let it go. The same way Jesus says forgive them (they know not what they do) • I think it's interesting that the quote can reach multiple levels of truth- from the level of knowledge, of awareness we have at the moment and the absolute truth- but what the saints say is that you're there already it's a state of being but on a relative level we can only speak to the truth that we see and know and we speak the truth in proportion to our level of comfort with the potential outcome of speaking that truth. • Reminds me of Marcel Proust’s quote : “The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes.” • The concept of this path I’ve struggled with it, but I believe it isn't about the doctrine of being on a path it's about getting fulfillment by experiencing everything. The more you get to that state of fulfillment the more accepting you are of this reality. This is just the way it is. Ultimately the truth is the better way. • I think I myself have been trying to get truthful and many times there's been confusion and I’ve felt awkward. In the Mahabharata when Krishna asks Yuddhishtra to say Ashwattama is dead- why did he do that? Another story there's a man running with a robber following him sword in hand and he hides behind a meditating saint. The robber asks have you seen this guy? The saint who wants to be truthful says- yeah the guy is behind me and the robber chops off his head. So how is that right? Recently I was in Canada and missed my flight and was on the highway for three hours and so I called the airlines and asked for another ticket and they asked me to pay 300$ for that. And I felt bad and my family was watching me and my brother calls and he tell them that- the lady at the airport said if you call them by phone they won't charge any money- so then they didn't charge! And I felt bad I told the truth and was asked to pay my brother lied and they didn't charge. • I wasn't prepared for my response to this quote, and as I was listening I realized I hadn't thought about Truth in a long time so it was probably a good exercise. • In general with Krishnamurti he gives a lot of different meanings for a lot of different words. But I don't think this is about truth and lies- he's talking about seeking a spiritual truth; since you are seeking there is a path so that’s the context. He's against having a mental picture of something and you are trying all your life to achieve that goal through a path and system whereas truth is in the present. He's like a Zen master except that he’s using too many words! If you are a seeker in spite of Krishnamurti then you keep on reading that and this. I read through this stuff for 40 years! Today if someone asked me what I got from that- I would say Sit With What Is. I want to say one thing- 36 years ago I was walking with Krishnamurti's nephew in Chennai and we were talking about different things then I said I don't know what Krishnamurti means by this. Then that guy he got a little offended and asked me to ask Krishnamurti don't ask me. So that's the problem- but the essential thing you will get because he's cutting short your thinking process. When thinking stops true meditation takes place. You become the consciousness. • I find Truth with a big T hard to discuss in less than 20 hours so I'm not going to do that. In terms of telling the truth it's important to know what seems true at the moment- people in the abstract say telling the truth is a good thing but I would hope that if you were hiding Jews in World War II and the Gestapo knocked at your door and asked if you were hiding Jews- I hope that you would lie. I think it's important to keep track of what the truth is for yourself but whether you have to express that to other people all the time I don’t know I think that isn't always necessary. • I really like this thought. Krishnamurti at times seems very intellectual , I haven’t read very much of him but from what I have read to me he seems very clear very grounded but very ideal. So, much as he creates all these aha moments it's really hard for me to take it and practice it. I think ultimately what he's talking about is right on but there are pitfalls in trying to implement that- the opposite is always trying to track your progress and that's hard too because you tend to lose track of the fact that truth is in the moment. So for me it's somewhere in the middle where practicality lies. Need to make sure I'm not deluding myself- so I think there is a certain balance that works for me. • I was just thinking in general about truth and whether it is just about being true to yourself. Just a thought. • I would like to bring up 3 points. A lot of people have said they don't understand him. I think Krishnamurti should be thought of as a poet and you shouldn't try for the literal meaning of each and every word. But I think he may be equating truth to peace and saying that you have to find it within yourself. About his repetition I think he's trying to say you don't have to go anywhere to find it it's in you. When I am not truthful I feel uneasy and not at peace. Suppose when you have a kid and he’s sleeping you'll see that he's at peace. I volunteer to teach kids and they're a lot more direct because they haven't been corrupted into lying by the world. • I didn't quite get this quote. The only thing I can think of is what Krishnamurti was saying makes sense if I'm already enlightened but in the meantime I'm not and there is a path to get there and in that path there is discipline there are practices there's a constant awareness- and I'm sure I'm not getting the full context of his teachings since I'm not familiar with them- the other aspect of truth as the big Truth if we constantly are working on getting there then we attain more discrimination to know when it is in the practice of the more mundane truth with a small t and being able to do the right thing. • Just thinking about truth that really means a very internal truth in my thoughts I find myself changing what's inside as it comes out. To act on what’s within instead of shifting it for image so this thing about no path just means that that's always possible at every moment. I think sometimes whenever I say I'm going to live this life of no path- that in a way becomes a path- so at that time you just have to do what's necessary. It's that - dynamicity that's the key to this I think. • Actually Brian and I would like to come for the meditation as often as possible- but it happens only a few times a year. This thought actually counters the thought from a year ago when I came- that one I remember was talking about how you should choose a path or a guru to follow and my contribution that week was I don't think there's a path to follow- so this thought was perfect for me because it's what I believe. • Most people have heard about Confucius? At his time there were at least 19 gurus like him. Lao Tze- you may have heard of, was one of them. At age 80 he got fed up with all these master talking about Truth so one day he wrote down the Tao Te Ching and left- no one ever saw him again. He said if you can talk about truth it's not the real truth. • I actually like the movie name Inconvenient Truth better than the movie because it’s a real reflection of what's happening in our society. • I spent sometime struggling with this quote. Krishnamurti is so good with words and this was a maze with either a kernel of gold or nothing in there. So it was a trick or a place where you put in what you wanted. So the things that came to mind were the titles of two books by my gurus. Mahatma Gandhi’s- My Experiments with Truth. The second Satish Kumar's Path Without Destination. • About Truth I was thinking yes we have an ultimate truth- it's the state of being that we can also call consciousness. If we live in it we don't have conflicts of thought, deliberate thinking doesn't take place and I think that's what the path of truth is and everyone does have to find their own methods. Some people meditate in the morning others in the night, some can go three days without it... it’s about really trying to be honest with yourself- you might not be completely truthful all the time with what you say- but real truthfulness with yourself. • With the notion of truth there are a few things that come to my mind- when I think about it by myself I think it's not about talking like a parrot about something but being sensitive to your surroundings and sometimes this makes it necessary to condition what you say. For instance I was reading about this man in Lebanon who'd just lost his family in the bombing and he was lying in bed and doctors were hesitant to tell him that truth. I find that notion to be very powerful in itself,. About systems in general if I am in a situation where I'm not able to follow anything I would say that everything that you do in life has a certain system. There is a certain discipline to taking a bath folding your blanket- so you tend to follow certain principles and hopefully by being disciplined you might strike something along the way. • My brother says about discipline- you must be a disciple of your own experience. I thought that was very counter-intuitive at the time when I heard it. • I don't think too much about Truth because I don't know what to make of it. The thing that intrigued me was the phrase fulfillment- the phrase fulfillment in action. If you can follow, or not follow a path as long as it fulfills you that's fine. • All this talk about truth, I was thinking about a while back I had an experiment with truth- I was working in a group context and there was one rule that I happened to break and it had pretty serious consequences. I didn’t realize at the time that I had broken it- it was only months later that I found out and I told the truth instantly knowing what the consequence was going to be and it was pretty harsh. The actual act that I committed I didn't think it was wrong and neither did the people who actually put the rule in place. I'm being vague but in the end it didn't really matter- and what I learned was that it didn't really have to do with the act or the consequence but- just the truth. • If I look at truth from the non-Indian perspective I see it as one of those things that makes you a civilized person like being on time- so in that sense it's worth following- lets say you need to be on time for school but not other things because it doesn't matter- but if I get into the practice of being not on time for some things it's possible that I would stop being on time for what’s important and it's the same thing with not saying the truth sometimes because I might then not say the truth when it matters. If you never lie that will never happen and for me it’s also kind of like using bad words or swearing- if you do it a few times it loses it's shock and it becomes a part of your language. I'm acting all noble here- I haven't thought about not telling the truth because I have so many other things to think about. But I can see why in a non-spiritual sense it would be really important to tell the truth. • Krisnamurti is one of those difficult writers- I understand why people have such difficulty. I kind of just waved my head- what is he saying? But I keep reading it. I don't know why. Sometimes if you try to practice it something will come forth- like the finger pointing at the moon. One thing everybody knows- most people I believe tell the truth naturally- it's the tendency. One thing we should be aware of is that we always tell the truth to the best of our knowledge. The knowledge gets updated- so a new path is built so if the knowledge gets updated moment to moment then the path changes moment to moment. So there's no set path. • Truth is over rated so don't spent too much time thinking about it. It's a pretty good quote. I think people try to read it a couple of times and each time depending on where you are you get something different. • This quote really speaks to me as the best quote I ever read. Maybe because I'm Chinese. As time goes by you experience changes and it means different things to you. I agree with it. I don't really care what it means. So this quote it makes sense to me but do I know what it means- No. • Everybody is talking about truth so I will also talk about it. If we light up the fireplace we will see the flames now, by the time I describe it- it is going to change. That’s how the truth is we can't define it because it is changing every moment. These days I am watching the US Open. Sometimes it comes to a tie breaker and becomes tense when it can go either way- and at that point the person who wins is the person who doesn't care about the moment but plays for the right action in each moment. Whosever is doing that generally ends up winning the tie and therefore the whole match, I think that's an important thing to implement in our lives the right action moment to moment and the future will take care of itself. • A native Indian quote is that the past is in front of you and the future is behind you- one could say there is a path only after you've walked it. Meaning when you're walking it there is nothing in front of you. • I think Truth to me is a very complicated matter maybe because when I was ten I happened to read a translation- a novel- the preface had a lot about truth basically what all of you have said and Dinesh summarized it- it stayed with me that it is very difficult to come to an absolute truth. What is true right now may not be in the next so you have to take it moment to moment. It's not a judgment issue for others to feel that is not true. I don't know whether its right or not but it's stayed with me. Hide full comment

A quick correction to Nisha's comment before I offer mine: She missed the word 'true' in the second paragraph. The corrected sentenc is: JK's words seem [true] to people who have already been on some journey of self-discovery. Well, strange at it sounds, one could see here that Nisha's comment is apparently contradictory to JK's statement. JK says that there is no path and Nisha says that JK's claim would seem to be true to people on some 'journey' - which implies the existence of a path. Is Nisha wrong? Is JK a fake intellectual? I agree with Tristan that semantics plays a huge role in creating confusion in how people interpret words and extract meaning. I agree with Nisha that whoever could benefit from JK's words must already have some experience of self-discovery. I sympathize with Brother. I too used to get quite frustated at people who keep asking me to "just be" and never tell how (the path) and even go further and say that there is no how. I am with Xiaoshan who is gently requesting us to see the difference between being and becoming. I am encouraged by Anonymous that after all there may be no need to "seek" truth. Finally, I conceptually see what JK is saying and I also see that my ability to live that concept is limited. Limited by what? As JK says, it is limited by all the conditioning I have gone through. Whether I like it or not, I am on some path formed and shaped by all my conditioning. The act of removing my current path (my conditioning) can be called 'a journey to end my path'. I think JK is asking us not to create a path out of actions taken to remove conditioning. For example, let us say that reading and understanding JK's words are actions that help remove conditioning. To be able to read, I need the to have knowledge of the English language, a good vocabulary and good reading skill. To understand what I read, I need to have some life experiences (a kid who can read cannot relate to JK's words) and some experience in interpreting words from different perspectives. Now all these needs are needed to read and understand not only JK's words, but anyone's words in English. I am sure JK would agree that these are real needs. But I think what he is warning us of is not to get caught up in English language alone. Not to get stuck to a limited vocabulary, not to stick to just one way of reading words, not to use just one perspective in interpreting words etc. It is by doing these things we end up creating a "method" or a "path". While knowledge, skills, tools etc are very much needed, there is no need to go to the extent of creating a path by repeatedly using the same knowledge, skills and tools everywhere at all times. I think JK is asking us to use knowledge, skills, tools, perspectives etc in a dynamic way as appropriate for the present moment guided by whatever principles make sense to us. "Being" like this allows us to have real growth (to become) whereas concentrating on "becoming" all the time could never lead us to "be" someday. When I started writing this, I had not idea what I was going to write. All sorts of reactive thoughts popped into my mind when I read the quote and the comments. I paused and looked at everything again. Brother's last lines caught my attention: "Anyway, it may have some effect in the end, because everything happens for the best". Now that is a perspective that is different from the rest of his comment. I took a clue from that line and looked at the quote and comment asking myself, "Is there something here that is valuable?" which resulted in this note. I will end by saying that how I respond to a person has lot more impact on myself and that person than the actual words of that person. If that person offers something valuable, I could respond in a way that appreciates and may be even enhances that value. If that person offers something that is messy, my response could bring in more clarity. Thanks. Ragu Hide full comment

IMHO There are many thoughts above that inspire in valuable ways. I think the apparent hypocrisy of K is a separate issue. I am very free in telling others where I think I have been foolish, and likely self-deluding, but I have not seen K offer us such self-critique in order to avoid misleading thru his example. There's no value in passing judgement on him or jumping to conclusions about his intentions, but we're looking for all clues as to what he meant by his words and actions. Several of K's statements act as valid criticisms of common approaches. However his words do not tie together as a whole and they ring hollow. The "logic" is flawed. Most truth-seekers seem pretentious to me. I try to be ever more self-honest, questioning myself harder when the answers seem to suit me conveniently, or justify what I do. Why theorize about a grand scheme that I do not understand? Some key phrases to try to fit together: "living the truth" while being unaware of it. Being instead of becoming, altho moving from reality clouded by various illusions towards reality less clouded. There are a lot of word games going on, and each of us understands them slightly differently, so I think it remains for each of us to try to fit them all together, or see how they don't fit. I try to finer-tune my ability to "smell" the underlying contradiction or vacuity (outright disproof is usually impossible in the face of possible ambiguity), while still trying to find as much inspiration as I can. Hide full comment

Excuse me, but this is one of the worst discourses I have ever read in the Internet, and one of the worst of J. Krishnamurti. The fear of "being caught" by something mentioned there is an expression of paranoia. Krishnamurti himself was "trained" by certain masters since childhood, and when very young he wrote a sweet book called "at the feet of the master". Afterwards he was somehow influenced to lose all humility and just self proclaim himself knower of the truth. He seems very smart, but perhaps... That's why he does not get any genuine person nowadays to even listen to his dead words. I was surprised to receive this discourse in this newsletter, which often offers interesting and wise experiences. But this one is a big fake, an intellectual extravaganza used to fool the people and try to show some superiority by making people confused and feel themselves stupid. Anyway, it may have some effect in the end, because everything happens for the best, but this sort of discourse is practically useless nowadays, unless one wants to become like him, a follower of the twisted mind. Hide full comment