Alnoor Ladha and Lynn Murphy aim to reimagine the paradox of post-capitalist philanthropy by taking us on a journey from the history of wealth accumulation to the current logic of late-stage capitalism – and ultimately to the lived possibilities of other ways of knowing, sensing and being that can usher in life-centric models. Alnoor comes from a Sufi lineage and writes about the crossroads of politics and spirituality in troubled times. Lynn is a strategic advisor for foundations and NGOs working in the geopolitical South, having resigned as a “conscientious objector” to neocolonial philanthropy. Lynn and Alnoor are co-directors of The Transition Resource Circle, a group focused on the broader transition from our current meta-crisis to adjacent possible futures. TRC seeks to work with resources and resource holders to alchemize and liberate capital to be in service to Life.

-----------------------

PB: post-capitalism is a paradox, what is that?
AL: Capitalism is self-terminating algorithm and we are reaching limits.  And yet the only way to move in the system is through utilization of financial capital. 
LM: We are complicit so not an easy path towards another way.  Philanthropy is what we focus on, which has it’s own difficulties with this path.

PB: what does ‘money thrice stolen’ means? What are limits of money in capitalist system?
AL: The phrase is from Colin Greer at New World Foundation. First stolen from ‘rigged market system,’ then ‘tax breaks’ from 501c3/etc, then social/power benefits from the largesse.  It’s a distraction industry in that sense, a prophylactic.  All social movements we work with are determined by philanthropy, and realizing that we are actors of implementing funding decisions.  Started with Rockefeller and Carnegie, and continues.  Nowadays, capital continues to grow, and consciousness is ‘laundered’ in the public sphere.
LM: This manifests institutionally and personally.  And yet legacy and perpetuity continues as a concept in money world.  Who gets to decide what problems to work on?  Even seeing the issue from problem/solution lens is part of this paradigm.  Money believes it can know what is best and deploy capital to that end.

PB: how can masters tools dismantle the masters house?
AL: consciousness shifts from master/slave dynamic.  These identities are part of the problem.  Need ontological shift.  We are being asked to shift out of self-preservation mindset. 
PB: what happens if we look at money as ‘not mine’ or ‘hot potato’?  having money is thus suffering
LM: heart of the inquiry is about shifting from transaction/accumulation to relationship/reciprocity.  I resonate with your question, that there is a disease in this accumulating/holding of capital.  An addition for comfort, for stuff.  We can invite that we are simply stewards instead.
AL: Every dollar created, 93 cents goes to the top 1%.  And every dollar created heats up the planet.  The structure of the system creates this, regardless of the ‘type’ of capitalism we practice.  There are spiritual and karmic implications of this.  But it is also an efficient way of organizing labor.  While its there, why don’t we create infrastructure that supports life?

PB: is what we are talking about a ‘return’ to prior times?
LM: capitalism is the approach that gives rise to exploitation, domination, and thingify people and nature in a transactional way.  Post-capitalism is an ontological shift that sees the limits of that approach. And values that move beyond that in relationship.
AL: not a primitivism.  Capitalism is the growth of capital above all else.  Then there’s rules around that that our society follows.  Instead we could say capitalism is alive, it is complex and adaptive, like AI.  Post-capitalism is not anti-capitalism, its being informed by existing system to create other systemic options.  ‘neo ancient emerging’

PB: what is philanthropy in the service of life?
LM: 3 horizons of Bill Sharpe: 1-incremental; 2-disrupt; 3-alternatives.  Is it truly rooted in values?  Relationship, trust, deep listening.  Is it coming from a shift of consciousness?  And then engaging in right relationship.  And to keep coming back to relationship ‘even when I make a mess’

PB: what does it mean as a concrete path? Who is audience?
LM: grappling with ‘how is this wealth earned’? on what do I stand? Deploying all the capital, not just the endowment. Imagination – we can more easily imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism. And healing work.

PB: what does it feel like to live in that service?
AL: like putting your ear to the ground and asking a question