Birju: It's... You do something downstream to try to help. And a few months later, it's even worse, because the underlying systems remain as they are. We have a friend in the ecosystem, her name is Preeta Bonsai.

She's talked about this idea of the governance gap, where every year, technology is exponential, and governance is linear, so it's just going to get more and more as time goes on. I'm curious, one, does that resonate? And two, if you know that, if you know that the upstream issues that are causing all the stuff that we see as problematic with these new technologies, the upstream is only going to make it worse. What does that mean for us as responsible citizens?

Randima: Right. So, first thing, yes, I completely agree with this idea of the governance gap. There's also the issue of regulatory capture. So on top of not only can governance not keep up with technology that's advancing all the time, and by the way, it's like, new versions of ChatGPT or Cloud, or whatever you're using.

Are rolled out all the time. It's like, every few weeks, there's a new even, it might not be announced publicly, but there are changes that are happening all the time. And meanwhile, governance, we're like, well, let's contemplate, and then we fight a lot, and then maybe we'll pass some small thing, and then that takes effect in 12 months, and it's just very difficult, it's fraught. So, one of the things you have to do also is to upgrade the governance mechanisms, right, to just the way you do it, to be able to iterate faster.

And that, to me, is a subset of the main point, which is I think, I'd claim strongly that AI is the opportunity. It's the reason to rethink the systems. You have to do it; you're forced to do it because it's just not going to work for people. And I think people are realizing that very quickly, so I think there will be strong public pressure.

So one of the strategies, and I think this is how it's going to play out, is strong public pressure for this isn't going to work. And when you look at something like data centers, why are people so latched on to data centers? When normally the environment's not that big on their radar, right? They're sort of like, okay, because data centers represent a physical instantiation of a problem that you're fighting.

But you can put your finger on that, that thing, that giant building over there. That's the problem, right? AI is much more abstract. Right?

It's a thing that can do whatever, and it kind of lives in the cloud, and you can make things with it, but the thing that's made is not always the clear enemy, right? Some of them are, like, AI slop is a clear enemy. So what you'll find is strong resonance in any of these cases where you can point to something, and data centers are a good example. Losing jobs is a very clear thing, right?

The most important thing is being able to put food on the table for your family. Employment for your children when they graduate. When you've sort of followed the thing, and you're like, okay, we kind of did the school thing, we tried to get the grades, and get into college, and now what? It doesn't work.

And it's increasingly going to not work, right? I think that every bit of evidence is there, that that's what's going to happen. You don't need AI that's going to reach the level of even AGI, artificial general intelligence, equal to, let's say, a human behind the screen. Indistinguishable from a human behind the screen, a capable human.

Or any higher forms. Even if you freeze AI development right now and just say, nope, no more. What we have is still going to improve in capability a lot, just by the different ways we scaffold it, the ways we use it. There's a lot of headroom.

This is going to happen, and I think it brings up all of these conversations. The sooner we have them, the better. And that's another thing that everyone can do. Be very vocal about this, but use it as a chance to say, hey, we also do this in all these other domains.

The rules aren't keeping up with lots of things. Right, environmentally. But even simple things like airlines and choosing seats. Everyone's figured out, right, if the rules aren't keeping up, we can compete to extract from the consumers.

And we're seeing that in more and more places, all the time. And I think those… so then products are kind of getting worse, right? Because they realize that there's no long-term reviews. So short-term review is all you get.

Make it shiny now, doesn't need to last long, you'll never get found out. Just as a simple example, right? There's that, there's the whole, you introduce Lyft or Uber, disrupt the taxi industry, and then once everyone's gone, you raise the prices. Or streaming, right?

Everyone knows these things, right? These are examples that are very… Here in the U.S, very tangible.