[These transcripts, as with all aspects of Awakin Calls, are created as a labor of love by an all-volunteer team located around the world. They are a collective offering, born from a shared practice of deep listening and service. Diverse and spontaneous teams emerge week to week to create and offer these calls. See our organizing principles here. Listeners are invited to join our co-creative community here.]
Guest: Aurelio C Hammer
Host: Rahul Mehta
Moderator: Nisha Srinivasan
Rahul: Hello and I welcome all of you to Awakin Talks this morning. Good morning, and good evening to everyone, depending on which part of the world you are joining from. My name is Rahul. Thank you for joining us today. The purpose of Awakin Talks is to plant seeds for a compassionate society. And while we are all on our inner and outer journeys, these calls help us hold space for our guests who come from all walks of life and who inspire us to offer ourselves in service. Behind each call, there's a whole team of ServiceSpace volunteers whose invisible work allows for this space to manifest.
Today, our guest is Aurelio Hammer, founder of Svaram, and based out of the Auroville community. The call will be moderated by Nisha. Thank you all for joining today's call. We would like to start the conversation with silence, to anchor ourselves in the space of the present moment. I invite all of you to join in for a minute.
Welcome again, to our fortnightly Awakin Talks -- in conversation with Aurelio C Hammer is Nisha Srinivasan today. In a few minutes, we will be handing it over to Nisha who will introduce the talk theme and then dive into the interview, which is titled ‘Listening to our inner music.’ By the top of the hour, Nisha will also include audience questions and reflections. So anytime during this talk, you may want to share your questions and reflections for Aurelio by typing it in the chat window of our live-stream page.
Just as a friendly reminder, we're operating in virtual space, with the usual constraints of technology, poor audio, video, or bandwidth etc. Things can go wrong and sometimes, they have! So please know that if there is a technological glitch, or for any other issue, due to which we may lose the speakers momentarily, we will allow for some time while they join back. This is just asking for your understanding. Thank you very much!
Today, our moderator is Nisha, who has catalyzed many lives, gently inspiring many with her life choices and experiments. And now we have one of our friends Shabbar from Hyderabad and Anhad space to offer you her introduction. Over to you, Shabbar.
Shabbar: Thanks, Rahul for providing an opportunity to introduce Nisha. Good morning or good evening, friends. In my humble opinion, we can know a person through these three lenses. The first lens is the inner journey that he or she has taken, how one has participated in the growth of the family and the impact he or she has created in the world. I've known Nisha for the last seven years. Let me share some stories which tell about her.
So around seven years back, Nisha visited Hyderabad to meet one of our common acquaintances. There, she met my brother Abid. Abid said, “My brother has done some experiments in growing fruit trees.” And since Nisha is very close to natural farming and trees and all and so, although I was not there at home and neither was my family, they visited my house. And, there were some vegetable beds which were about to start. And to my surprise, when I came back, I saw the vegetable beds were prepared. This was done when she did not know me, hardly knew my brother. It was really, really surprising for me. And it tells a lot about her character.
Second story is like few months later after this, we went to Nisha's farm in Coimbatore. We got a game for Nisha’s son Aum. It was morning, 9:00 AM. Aum insisted to Nisha that -- Okay, why don't you play with me this new game? And house was full of guests and I could see so much of work was just pending. But to my surprise, Nisha sat with Aum and they played the game for 30 minutes. This was shocking. But later I realized the best gift you can give as a parent to a child is attention and time.
Few years later, there's a third story. A few years later, Nisha and Ragu came to Hyderabad to have a one day Nature Cure camp. The camp started. The camp preparation started from 4 AM in the morning and it was going on till 11 in the night. In the middle of this camp, Suchitra said, “Nisha, is it possible on the next day, tomorrow, to address a gathering for an hour?” And I knew that Nisha's next day was packed. They were supposed to go back to Coimbatore and they were physically tired, like anything. But without a thought, she said, let me try to squeeze it in. This was her dedication to the community.
This is what Nisha is to me. They left a so-called comfortable life in Silicon Valley and moved to a remote village in Coimbatore to live a life which is in harmony with nature in every, pretty much every dimension. And in this process inspired so many like me. Thank you so much, Nisha. Thank you!
Rahul: Thank you so much, Shabbar, for joining from Hyderabad and telling us about all these stories. We would have probably not known, because as we know, Nisha, Ragu and Aum live under the radar, doing and planting all these acts of kindness. And even before we know they have blossomed into some beautiful trees. Thank you, Shabbar.
And now moving on to our guest of the day, Aurelio, who at very short notice accepted this invite, and graced this gathering with his presence. Born in Austria, Aurelio's love affair with music began on the guitar when he was 12. By 19, Aurelio was well-trained to play classical compositions. But he says that whatever I played, I could not make music of the heart. So keen on learning indigenous music from various parts of the world, he left home at 19, went to remote islands, et cetera. His journey took him to a lot of distant places, when he was still in college. Following a mystical experience, he arrived in Pondicherry in 1980 and stayed there for a few months. Pondicherry beckoned him again in 1991 and Aurelio moved to the township of Auroville. He has been involving himself in community outreach programs for children, organizing and being a part of performing arts, theater. Aurelio also then found his true calling, as he began a journey into sound -- both personal and institutional journey onwards that saw him first found a cultural center called Mohanam in 2002. And then later in 2003, Svaram.
Svaram, founded by Aurelio -- its motive is to explore the role of traditional musical instruments and the physical, emotional, social, and environmental impact of sound on the human psyche. Svaram is not just a musical instrument, manufacturing and research facility. It actually grew out of social development and vocational training project. It generates livelihood for over 40 people. Amongst them, former construction workers and mechanics and school drop-outs from neighboring villages around Auroville. Svaram also explores the study of using sound for healing and well-being in tackling the complex phenomenon of body pain. So welcome, Aurelio -- who describes himself as a listening soul following mysterious song lines into unknown territories. And yet, his diverse interests converge together harmoniously in his life, as he awakes the new music on earth that will reflect humankind's evolution into a new integral consciousness. Welcome, Aurelio and over to you, Nisha.
Nisha: Thank you so much, Rahul. And thank you so much, Shabbar. I'm just so grateful to be spending this weekend with you all. And it's such a joy to be conversing with Aurelio, who has made it his life’s endeavour or sadhana to be in tune with so many inner and outer vibrations. And, when Rahul was introducing Aurelio, I was thinking that here is a person, who in one lifetime or even half a lifetime, has lived so many lives so deeply. And I'm humbled by that. Thank you so much for being here, Aurelio. And, I know it's going to be difficult to cover so many aspects of your life that you have lived so richly in just 90 minutes. But we are going to try anyway.
And the broad themes that we would like to explore today are how may we deeply listen to our inner music? And how does one integrate disparate aspects like art and music, social action, spirituality and business in one's life without being spread too thin? And what is the secret sauce to the unity of our human traits? So those are some broad themes that we'll be exploring today.
And, before that, we always start our calls with a chant or music. To vibrate us in the frequency of the inner light, today, I invite Shaalini Srinivasan, also from Auroville. Shaalini moved to Auroville four years ago, leaving a very vibrant career in media. And she's a mother to a young girl of 12. And now she has taken up volunteering in Auroville, full-time, and she teaches at a school, and also focuses on her own inner growth. And Shaalini, it’s a blessing to be hearing you today. Thank you.
Shaalini chants Agnir me (from Taittriya Brahmana 3.10.8, Laghu Nyasa mantra)
Nisha: Thank you so much, Shaalini, for reminding us that we are not just a drop in the ocean, but again, an entire ocean in a drop. Thank you so much. And, to complement that audio, now we'll have a short video that introduces the work of Svaram and Aurelio. (Video plays)
Yes. Again, the themes that we are exploring broadly today are how many deeply listen to our own music, naada brahma, and how does one integrate the various aspects that seem to be in apparent conflict with each other, like art and social actions, spirituality, and business in one's life without being drawn too thin? And, what is the secret sauce to human unity? And, it's a privilege to be exploring that with Aurelio.
So one of my sparrows tells me a few days ago there was a gathering in Auroville, and Aurelio came to attend it. And there were some lamps and small decorations in the center. And without missing a beat, Aurelio goes out, picks some leaves and flowers, then comes back and arranges them, making the centerpiece even more beautiful, even more aesthetic. So Aurelio, have you always been this kind of kindred spirit? What was your childhood like?
Aurelio: I think I had the fortune of growing up in nature... And I want to take just a moment because we connected so beautifully in that present moment today, in the evening, or wherever people are. I think that while meeting digitally, what is very important is that we also connect consciously in the different spaces in which we are. I think we have such an opportunity to have a global connect -- no? People would be here in India and maybe overseas. And I think what this is helping us, this online streamings, that we've become aware that we are present together in different locations simultaneously on the planet. And so I'm just having this awareness of it -- that wherever we are, we are connecting. We're making this network of kindred spirits basically, globally together!
I think I have been fortunate to grow up in nature and environment. It was on an edge of a small town in Austria. My grandparents lived -- actually, they were farmers and they lived in the countryside, on a beautiful hilly side with snow-capped mountains in the background. And I think nature is providing, nature is inviting participation. When one sees things growing and sprouting in the springtime and coming into fruition in the summer and into bloom, and then everything withers away and dies and goes underground (in the winter). And in the Alps, then the ground is frozen for three to four months.
And I was growing -- also, I had this period in my life when I was growing my food -- I think when one comes into the cyclicity of nature, one becomes humble. One becomes excited with the springtime, one flowers with the summertime. So I think one touches all the different planes and parts of the being in a very harmonious, fluid way because nature is unpredictable. Especially now maybe because we influenced it so strongly. We sought a human, maybe an industrial civilization. So nature is even more unpredictable and more heavy in her impacts and messages. And I think the role of us as humans is, I think we are that part of nature which is slowly becoming conscious, so that we can participate in the co-creation and the evolution of nature, hopefully joyfully -- joyfully, and actively.
Nisha: Thank you. Thank you. From that stillness, you went probably into a space of restlessness at 19. As Rahul was introducing you, you were an accomplished musician, a guitarist at 19, but you didn't want to rest on your achievements. You were looking for something that came from a deeply personal source. Would you mind expanding on that restlessness that came in, at that time?
Aurelio: Actually, I had the crucial experience of a very surprising kindness. When I was about 17, I was hitchhiking in Austria in the winter. I had just set out on the road. I wanted to explore. I wanted to meet the unknown, the unexpected. And so, in the winter it can be like minus 10 degrees. And standing on the road, maybe for five hours and waiting for a car -- because it was very conservative at that time, Austria -- and maybe I had long hair. So I was a little bit like the unknown. And then after freezing, really freezing through my whole body, a car had stopped, and actually, it was not Austrians. It was people from Korea.
It was Korean immigrants to Austria. And for me, that opened the complete view because basically, they were so amazingly kind and welcoming, whereas my own country people, in one way they didn't care. That's how I interpreted it at that time. And then the Korean family, they took me home and hosted me in their home and served me a meal and all of that. And for me, that, basically, it opened this interest into Asia, into what's there in other parts of the world. If my own people, if there was no communication and maybe if I was judged because I looked different and I behaved differently. But those people from a foreign country, they were so open and welcomed me. So that basically really churned something for me. It was so deeply touching, because I overnighted with that family. They were so kind. The next morning, they brought me to where I had to be and all of that stuff.
And so that basically there was a strong call out into the world to explore the world. And, actually, because I had the sense that something in the society where I grew up, in the post-war development and rebuilding and all materialistic or impatient. So I was a bit disillusioned and I didn't feel that heart space. And then I looked for a place which was furthest away from Western civilization and it was a tiny little dot of an island in the middle of the South Pacific ocean. And so it was a little bit like the search for lost paradise.
But then admittedly, when I arrived in paradise and everything was kind of like ideal, like from a dream -- you know all the Western people staying in Bora Bora in the South Pacific Island and the Palm trees and the white beach and the turquoise blue lagoon and all of that -- there is where the restlessness actually really became apparent because I was looking for something! I think I was searching for this lost paradise. And that brought me even through things. Lots of indigenous people in the Stone Age life in Papua New Guinea. So I stayed some time there in villages with people. And at one point a little bit later on...
So I moved five years around the planet. It took me five years to return to Europe. It was one big circle. And in the 80s, this was possible. There was not much money. So I had to hitchhike, get rides on boats and jump on trains and whichever way we traveled. I walked a lot -- kind of like running away from university, but I always say I studied the universe. My college was the universe and the planet as a whole. So I got the deep sense that it was taking five years to come one time around the planet.
I had a beautiful sense of the diversity and the magnitude, the size and the beauty of the planet. And at one point, when I came back and I settled in my farmhouse, then actually I worked with a teacher and he said -- there is no way to go back. That's how they say -- it's a sentimental journey, to go back to nature, go back to the origin, grow your own food, weave your own clothes, spin your own things, make your own soaps and everything. He said we have to look into the future. We have to leap ahead into the future.
And that's actually where the vision of Sri Aurobindo came in, through some writings basically, where he painted maybe really the future of the human spaces, where it could go. And so that's, I think, where my, as you said, restlessness, my search really was kind of like funneling in one direction. There's somewhere, where we can actually do something, which is ahead of us -- because I had this deep sense that the way we were and with the mess we’ve created on the planet, we couldn't be the crown of creation. There was something more to which we, as a human species, could evolve.
Nisha: Yeah. And most of us are in search of resource, and at 19, or even at 17, you were searching for the source. And, I see this resurgence of the number of people that want to go back from the resource to the source. And you're talking about leapfrogging into the future, right? And that early, like you're talking maybe 30, 40 years ago. It's fascinating. So you started exploring the world by exploring your inner world and in that you found Naada Brahman (the transcendental sound). So what is, what does it mean to listen? What comes up for you when anyone says the word ‘Listen’?
Aurelio: You know, because I'm still in this movement of the journey, I think any concept of a yatra -- any outward journey is at the same time an inner journey. When we go on a pilgrimage, basically, we are making this pilgrimage to come to the source, or to the center of the heart. And you see, because the Western world, in my perception at that time, the Western society was very much focused on ‘Doing’ -- it was all because we went through two world Wars and it had to be reconstructed. And everybody tried to create a material base for life.
But meeting the contemplative traditions of Asia, there was an emphasis on Being, on Listening and being receptive to what is. And again, I think nature plays such a beautiful part because, you know, one can sit at the river for an hour, if one is in an observant mood or a receptive mood -- there's no boredom or something like that. If we stay alert...
I had worked in different schools, I was trained in, I stayed in, Buddhist monasteries in different countries and I traveled with the Sufi masters through the whole of Europe. And there was always an emphasis on Listening. And, you know, initially when we say -- let's have a moment of silence -- it's like what's happening in that silence? Where are we going in that silence? Are we United in that silence? Do we find that direction in that silence? Or are we just going into nothingness?
So I learned basically that in most of the contemplative traditions, ‘Listening’ is the key. And so there are many different stages. Luckily, like in many areas, India harbors so many of those ancient traditions and practices. So naada yoga, that branch of yoga, which is focusing on ‘Listening to the Inner Source’ is a very elaborate even if an esoteric practice, but I had the good fortune of meeting some people who introduced me to deeper listening.
Nisha: Wow! And, you practiced just one tone for a whole year?!
Aurelio: (laughs) I think that the Indian tradition has so many treasures and maybe being inspired also by Sri Aurobindo’s writings on the foundation of Indian culture, we believe in the renaissance of Indian culture and the place of those ancient practices. And I just read in a book on classical Indian music that in the traditional way of learning, understanding naada was to practice one year on one sound. And I lived in the mountains in this beautiful isolated hermitage, without electricity, and that was a good place to do it.
So in the morning practice -- I mean, I had some introduction already in vipassana, so I knew how to basically focus and concentrate and empty my mind. And then, on the base of that, basically, I practiced with one sound, 'Om'. And, in that practice, of course, one goes through different stages -- you get bored, you want something happening, there's no experience. But, in that way, it's important in these practices to have a companion, to share your practice. And in the tradition of naada yoga, the best companion is the tanpura. So I had the tanpura from India and then you have that friend which will always stay on your side. And that friend is not kind of like going into emotions and different states. The tanpura is always sounding as she sounds. (laughs)
Nisha: Beautiful! Aurelio, can you please sing that one sound 'Om' for us?
Aurelio: I have actually a Ektara here, which is another amazing symbolic thing. It's used mostly in the Baul tradition. And the Baul tradition is one, beautiful, living tradition of the mystical, devotional, bhakti song culture of India. And for instance, the Ektara means it has one string only. You don't even see that string because it's subtle. The Nadi is a stream of vibration, but what you have on the Ektara, you have Ida and Pingala. You have the two channels. That's basically what it is -- the Ektara represents the spine, so to say. And in the middle, if this is balanced, if we find the balance between ha and tha, between sun and moon, then Sushumna can sound! And she sounds. .
So what I want to invite maybe is this, to the people who are sharing in this space, this is what we can do, because it's naada yoga, it is receptive and you listen to this sound and you go deeper and deeper into that realm. And then the second part of this sadhana is swara sadhana, where you bring that sound, that contact you had, you bring it into expression. You express this swara. And the simplest and most essential practice and maybe the most powerful practice in nada yoga is swara sadhana, and the foundation of it is humming!
So for instance, I want to invite everybody to see the power of naada yoga, because when we say let's have a minute of silence, hundred people do hundred different things in that silence. We use our mind or maybe we have Anapana (observe breath or sensations of breath) -- we can connect with the breath, which is very helpful. But when we are humming, basically we are creating a vibration and with this vibration we can focus our consciousness. So I'm inviting everybody that maybe we just do a bit of humming on that sound, and connect the consciousness into a service space. With the humming if we can join that hum with somebody who might need our service, with a living being or with circumstances, it can be even a global circumstance or some challenges which we're facing. Each one in their own way, let's just do some humming, just for a minute and with that hum, serve. Be in that compassionate space of being there for someone in need, or something in need.
Nisha: Thank you, Aurelio for the experience. Thank you for the beautiful immersive experience... and one needs the matching silence to resonate with the matching sound.
Aurelio: Very good! Yeah, like you said. It's basically also -- the humming and sound can be a beautiful introduction into silence. Because if you're consciously resonating, then in the silence, basically, that atmosphere is there, you create that atmosphere.
So that's, I think that’s why sound came to be so important in my life. Because I had been sitting in long retreats, and I had been in silence over months, sometimes in the mountains, and silence was always a sound or this beautiful entrance into silence from any activity -- sound immediately focuses. And then actually after one month of silence and not speaking, it's quite difficult to come into the expression again. And for me, actually, there was all this longing -- can we not actually, after a month of silence, it would be much nicer to tone together than to go immediately into speaking language and grammar and concepts and thinking spaces?!
Nisha: This sound being an entrance to silence, is that why at Svaram you make music out of the way brooms brush against the floor or the way hands rub against the stones? You're bringing the extraordinary into the ordinary. How do you do that?
Aurelio: I think we had the gift of, over the last century, in Western music also, music flowered into this amazing construction and palaces of composed sound, so to say. Maybe with the deconstruction of modern music and the avant garde movement, some of the pioneers like John Cage, who was a very deep Zen practitioner, those pioneers, they made us aware of sound, of everyday sound. That it's not only in music that we find solace and comfort and inspiration and encouragement, but actually with the listening awareness, once we dive deeper, it brings us into presence with every sound.
I come from a school basically of listening. It's connected in Vienna. I was very fortunate to be in an ancient classical school, which goes back to Pythagoras, to the Greek tradition. And it was the school of listening, a school of being receptive and listening to outer sounds, listening to our thinking, listening to our breath, listening to subtle energies, listening to the unknown, listening into nothingness. So it goes, basically, from the gross physical manifestation into subtler, subtlest tiers, into the journey of listening. So I go through life as a listener.
And I was just recently in an Awakin circle, on Wednesday evenings here in Auroville -- there's a circle actually for 11 years and I was not even fully aware. I had an idea of it, but when Nipun was here, I joined it. And I joined it (again) recently and it was in an apartment and then in this silence meditation, you know, they had all this -- fridge running, there was a washing machine running and all those machines. I'm not used to it, because I stay in the forest basically without any of those machines. And I heard all the overtones and the music and the machines and I said, “Oh, my God, how can people...? Is anybody listening to it?!” And I think that's what it does. You know, we specialize in one thing and we become more sensitized.
But the fun with listening is that the journey doesn't stop. It goes subtler and subtler. And where, what is really silence? Is there something like complete silence? Definitely not in our creation, in the creation of duality where matter and all the particles basically play with each other. Silence is always, how do you say, there's an underground of sound! And Sound and Silence is almost like a couple. I think it's two different sides of the same coin.
Nisha: That's beautifully said, and maybe that's why the noise of the world doesn't seem to bother you and it even inspires you! You seem to find great joy in connecting with people. And the work you do in villages around Auroville is quite inspirational -- when I read about it, or learn about it through someone. And most of your employees are actually school dropout kids. Right? I want to understand what is the nature of this inner bridge that connects the meditator in you and the artist who wants to reach out to people in these ways?
Aurelio: You see, let's say -- we say everything, everything that moves, everything that moves has a sound, has a frequency. And so looking at the origin, what moves, what is it that moves? So for me, that is, let's say, to say it in a wide concept -- this is the Shakti. It's the creative force which moves. And she moves in everything. She is very apparent; beautifully and harmoniously, and primally and instinctively -- she moves in Nature, and she moves also in human nature.
So for me, I think there's this deep interest. Also, of course, it was a challenge for many years. I rather wanted to stay in deep meditation and in inner worlds. But I think I realized after having stayed six years in isolation in the mountains that we, as a human species, I think we are a species of communication, of interchange. We are here to be together. Yeah, that's one part -- because in being together, learning together, we evolve, we face our challenges, we face our limitations.
I thought in the end of my twenties that, actually I thought that I’d reached kind of like a passage into enlightenment. And then you come into society and then you face all the challenges and you see that you're still angry and you get upset by things and all of that. And so I think deeply, and at the same time I learned, it took me quite some time. I think maybe after, only in my mid thirties, that I really opened into humanity and the beautiful dance and interaction of it.
And I always had this question, why is Auroville, which was created as a place for the future of humanity or preparing a laboratory of evolution -- why is that place set in this primal ground of Tamil Nadu amongst the villages here? And so I basically went into anthropological studies and back, almost since the first years when I arrived here -- as we know, all these western idealistic utopian spaces can also become mind spaces. But then all my interactions with the local folk were heart-centered. And so that had a strong attraction for me.
And, I think actually Svaram, really benefits from this, what we say in our development work, we spoke about the co-evolutionary process. We might be in different spaces and when you, you had been back in Silicon Valley and then you came back into Tamil Nadu, rural Tamilnadu, and we have been in different places in different stages of our evolution, but we're moving together. Yeah, that's one of the secrets -- when we are aware that we are there for progress and learning, then wherever we are, we can bring and share those gifts.
So for me, maybe I brought all the philosophy and the knowledge and the mathematics of sound and musicology and ethnomusicology. I brought my academic knowledge into it. And the rural youth, basically, they brought their talents. They brought their skills with their hands. They brought their willingness to be, and to serve, and their sense of adventure. And for me, it became most obvious when the rural youth -- and we had gang fights and alcoholism and violence problems initially -- when they worked together with international volunteers who came to Auroville, when they were the same age. And I saw those two -- there was this amazing peer-learning process. Those young people from the West who were college students and had finished up baccalaureate, and the local folk who didn't even finish the fourth standard of school and stuff, and couldn't read and write -- but they bonded so strongly.
And I said, here is a key for human unity. We're meeting on an essential plane because of our heart-space and the emotion dancing around the pure heart. Basically, we are all the same. When we are sad, we are the same, no matter what education we have. When we are in delight, and when we are sad -- we as humans, we are one family.
Nisha: Yeah, it's not so easy to come to that though, and I think along the way you talked about emotional challenges of the real world after coming down from the mountains. Can you touch up on one such challenge? For example, I learned that, I think in 2006 or so, there was a fire that gutted down most of the studio, and even your computer and your records -- what was going on within you at that time? How did you deal with it? Did you see it as Shakti moving through objects or how did you look at it?
Aurelio: Okay. So you're well-informed about all the different stages of the work! You know, of course, then when fire is coming, then it's the fierce aspect of the Shakti, then this Kali is striking. When Kali is usually striking, I'm saying it metaphorically, is when there is a need for a swift transformation, you know, when the power aspect is coming in.
And at that time I had actually definitely -- you know what, I had one mentor who was a very well-known social development worker and Vipassana meditation teacher at the same time, Bhavana, she was a pioneer in Auroville at that time. So I went through her mentorship. But in the back, you know what, one can make many mistakes! Yeah?! And so one mistake is that -- we think, you know, from the West, we think we know what's good for everybody else. You know? We know what will be the cure for all, in all of those developmental challenges and all of that! And so I had been a bit -- I had lots of energy and enthusiasm, and in that enthusiasm I did make some mistakes and possible blunders, and all of that.
The fire actually came to be, because we took care of lots of circumstantially-schizophrenic, mad, young people in the village. And then I found out from the doctors in Jipmer, in the university clinic -- they said, you know, chemically maybe they are okay in their brain chemistry, but life is so difficult for them, and life is such a trauma. And I'm facing this traumas over the last 20 years -- you know, suicide and murder and decapitation and women's home abuse; when the women come to work and they are beaten up so that they cannot even look at you on Monday morning and things...
So in all those challenges basically -- what's, where's the core of it? So it needs basically, it needs that grounding. And I think that was a gift for me from Auroville. That fire was definitely grounding us. And I had the good luck actually that somebody was coming from America, and they had these huge bush fires in their community and he brought a film and it said, “Cut the straw off as opportunity.” So it was even one of those young schizophrenic persons, he had put everything on fire, and he stood, there was a big bush knife and he threatened to kill me. And I walked up to him and I said, “Listen, what do you really need, and all of that?” That was a very powerful situation.
And that crisis, where a project, which was funded internationally, for the first three years, basically funding was finished, we were in the next phase of development. We were down in ashes -- which was very important, because, basically that time, we morphed from being a supported project into creating a sustainable base. Because I wanted to give up! And then those people with whom we had started the project -- they said, “No, actually, you picked us up that time, from the street. And we don't want to leave it behind. Now we are supporting it.” And so in one way, it turned out that those young people actually inspired me. They said -- we're not giving up. They stood together. That grounded the project.
And it made us really strong because we learned the work from nothing. We had to really work very hard for another five years to establish ourselves. And that I think created the foundation. So I think Svaram now is almost in the niche field -- where we are, it's almost a global brand.
Nisha: And working hard seems to come easily to you! And I have a related question. How do you balance sustainability and growth, and being a global brand with installations at airports and important places like sound museums, how do you balance that scaling and the sanctity of purpose, as you have grown?
Aurelio: I think at the core of sustainability is the inner human being, and so that's for me, the barometer, and that means even with the team. As you said, how big projects can we take? When are we over-stretching ourselves? And can we, again and again, return to that centre, and middle ground? I think that's a bit of the measure of it. And often, for many people who work professionally, it's almost (always) health for many people who work in the social field...
I had to go through two major burnouts in the last thirty years, in the field also. And then you learn from it. And once you hit bottom, it might take you three months to stand on your feet again. And from those experiences when one learns. And I think, I feel we are blessed in our work, in our teamwork. That we, at the core of what we're doing, everybody knows we work with music.
What is music for? Music is there to bring harmony into life. So, we said, if this is at the core of the work, how much can we bring this harmony in the work processes? How much can we bring it into the team? How much can we bring that energy into, for instance, in the business contract? Can we stand true to the inner core of our being, in that one, or are we compromising because we have a possibility of a good deal or something? And I think there -- the gift is really of, having sound all around us, having this constant reminder of harmony, and one expression of harmony is balance.
So, we zoom ahead, we work on big projects, international ones, we overdo it. I'm risking completely by saying -- yes, yes, we can do it. And then we make the biggest tuned wind chimes of the world -- sixteen meters, thousand kilos of tubular bells and all of that. And then I realized what a stretch it was, and it became a two-year project! And we didn't even know the ways, what it all entails -- electronics, electromotors, because it was in an airport and all of that.
But then in the course, you see nature has its seasonal cycles. And I think it's also important in work to realize that there are cycles to work. In the summer or something like this, there is a flowering, there is double the energy; and then there's a bit of a retreat. So what we do for instance, to stay in sync with the cycles -- we honour every new moon. We, as a team, because time in Tamil traditional society runs along the moon calendar, like the “Margazhi” month now -- there's very specific things which one can do and not do. And in some months, there's all these functions and everybody's absent. So I think for us to mark every new moon, we do a pooja (worship of the Divine) with the team and, and see what is there, and we have a special prasad in the month.
We know what are the qualities of the months and what's happening -- I think our balance is that we strike a balance in the seasonal context. And the balance between business... Let's say in the summer, it's more quiet. In the summer we focus on research and education. We have an evaluation period and out of the evaluation, we realize where we need to improve. And then we use two, three months for education and innovation. And then the time is changing into August, September, and that might be Christmas, that's when the Westerners, the foreigners come and the business rises up. Then we have a strong push for working. And then in the season when people from all over the world are here -- it's all about program, servicing, interchange, inspiration. So I think that is what keeps it balanced -- it's a seasonal cycle.
Nisha: The seasonal mapping is fascinating, but if one really thinks about it, it's just, again, tuning back to the rhythms of nature. And thank you for sharing that. Now I have, a kind of a speculative, silly question -- let's say, you know, there's a room and it's full of people and everyone is laughing and everyone is laughing at different frequencies. If I'm in that room, I still sense total harmony. So I want to understand, like, what is this harmony that is not bound by physical characteristics of sound?
Aurelio: Very good. It's a very good question! One of my foremost teachers and first thinkers of music into the next centuries, he was actually an American-French, astrologer, philosopher, musician -- Dan Grouchier. I don't often mention his name, but I do it in this context. He spoke about dissonant harmony and syntony, and that means -- because often in the spiritual journey, when we enter the spiritual journey, we want everything harmonious. We want to see everything from a coloured, from pink spectacles -- the whole world. That's a little bit, the pitfall and the shortcomings of the esoteric scene. We come, we enter spirituality and think everything has to fit as we want it. We would set down our intent for the aims we want to gain.
But life in the duality -- I think basically here on the planet, in this embodiment on the earth, it's a learning chapter, of growing, of integration, as evolution, is moving through different stages of evolution. In the field of duality, there are all of these challenges. They are strongest -- so when the sun is shining, so many shadows are there! The shadows become actually intensified when you have strong sunlight. And the stronger the light becomes in the inner being, the stronger also we become aware of the shadows. And I think the whole journey towards harmonization actually is that as we become more and more harmonious, the more shadows we can integrate. In those places where we are not aware, which are not in the light -- when we integrate them, we become more full.
So, what your question is: in the room, for instance, sometimes, when I’m in a public place or it's in a coffee house, in the auditorium, before something starts, you have hundreds of voices. I'm just sitting back into that listening mode. And for me, it's like, it's just the sound of an ocean, you know? On a gravel beach or something like this. I listen to the music of it all! And there might be so many different mind spaces and different communications, but I think the deeper we go, at the core of our being, there is oneness. We are connecting into the oneness -- quantum field or whatever one calls it. And so, it's the same in healing work -- we are using a sound.
We took a -- over the last years, basically we really specialized in it. I had some initial training in music therapy at the University of Salzburg. And basically, we moved into sound healing, working one-to-one or working in groups. I had worked for a few years in a Quiet Healing Center as a therapist. And initially also, one thing is that one just wants to harmonize! When somebody comes in, you want to comfort him and you camouflage the problem actually.
So it's like -- to avoid facing the shadow, it will not heal us! So that means -- even in very substantial healing processes, it's usually that we are facing the traumas which we brought with us through different circumstances. And only when we face them, when we honor them, when we give space for the disharmonies of life, and when we learn actually how we relate to them -- then we can come into this larger harmony, which integrates dissonances.
Nisha: Wow.. Thank you for teaching us the trick to convert every coffee house into a meditation space. I also want to remind our viewers that you can type your questions in the chat box of the live stream. Thank you.
And Aurelio, to pick up that thread of shadows; you spent considerable time with Acharya SN Goenka from the Vipassana tradition. And all holistic systems see our return to the source, or return to health or wellbeing, whatever you may want to call it, as a process of cleansing our body and mind of impurities. And you were touching upon how Naada Yoga helps one with this ignorance and suffering. Can you expand a bit more on that?
Aurelio: I think the base and I think that's the gift of Vipassana meditation is ‘samatha’ -- equality. That we face whatever we are encountering in life, that we face it with a certain, Goenkaji always spoke about equanimity. Shri Aurobindo speaks about equality. Equanimity is almost like you have to face it. You are still active. But equality is actually, as I interpret it, it's really, it's a poise. One is stationed in that space. Yeah?
How does one say this? Even in listening, as you said, how is it working in the Naada Yoga space? Many meditators and I went through this stage for many years, actually. It was perfect when I was sitting in the monasteries or in my mountain abode. But as soon as I , let's say, after a month's retreat, I had to go out on the highways and freeways and come back or something like this, travels through this cities, I couldn't bear the onslaught of dissonant sounds and noise basically. Noise as we define it, is disorganized sound. Tonal structures -- they are proportionate; mathematically ordered configurations of sound.
So how do we deal with the chaos? That noise is chaos basically. How can we integrate the chaos? And it's the same, basically, in the listening process, again and again. Because the nice thing is, in the listening process of Naada Yoga, we have actual happenings to which we can refer. Usually sound is coming from physical sources. And then we can test ourselves! Of course I prefer to listen to a beautiful Beethoven sonata or some meditative music. And then I have those machines running. I have a chainsaw right in the next garden of my neighbours and stuff like this. And I have an aversion to it!
So there, it's basically the same process of how we come -- what does it mean to be in the state of samatha? And have this non-judgemental attitude toward sounds. And I think it's almost an easier exercise to do with sounds, then when you do it with thinking processes. Because if you sit in a meditation practice and you experience all the beautiful things, everything is okay. And one develops an attachment to it. But then when actually all these disturbing thoughts are coming, so how you deal with it? And thoughts are much more subtler frequencies and vibrations than sounds from the environment.
So you can say almost that Naada Yoga can be also used as an immediate practice toward samatha. I feel fortunate, I had that foundation and Vipassana is a very amazing foundation in the practice. Because samatha seems to be the foundation for any spiritual practise.
Nisha: Thank you for sharing that -- about equanimity, samatha. That brings me to a related question. Indian classical music, classical music was not focussed on using music scales for entertainment or even enjoyment, but to attune oneself. The focus was squarely on the idea of mukti through the expression of these sounds. Maybe through bhakti, maybe as a chant. Do you resonate with this idea?
Aurelio: So you see, actually, I think that's important now that we actually come to the concept of integrality. Because so many Westerners and I think even Indian people who’ve returned from the West or who grew up -- I had this image of Indian culture that it's solely focused on, like Indian classical music, that it's focused on the process of Mukti, of liberation. And mostly Mukti means actually getting out of the mess; piercing the veils of Maya and of like going into somewhere else.
The question is actually, why would we be embodied, if we just want to get out of it? And if you want to leave it behind? So I think this is so important. And that's my association also with ServiceSpace, because we are basically here to embody, to act, to do, to give, to be together.
And so basically in the Integral Yoga, in Shri Aurobindo's records of Yoga, there is a beautiful concise formula, which I think brings, very beautifully, brings forth the concept of integrality. The first part of it is just Shuddhi (purification), Mukti (liberation), Bhukti (enjoyment), Siddhi (perfection). So, as you said before -- the first process is purification. We have to dismantle and get rid and transform all the conditioning we bring with us through the life circumstances, through our growing up and all of that. That's the process of Shuddhi and purification.
And naturally, we all have a tendency towards the source. That's how we started our conversation. There's a knowing of the oneness source and there's a longing to be with it and be connected. So that's the process of Mukti, of liberation. But at the same time, and that took maybe I think more than half of my life -- to realize we also have a very strong attraction to enjoyment, to the life, to creation, to beauty, to interaction, to communication, to laugh, to communal beauty, and happening in coherences and all of that. So that's actually...we honor it, and we recognize it. This is Bukhti. It's based on Bhoga. We are here for enjoyment.
That was one of my discussions; one of my final discussions with Goenka Ji. Because I said, "Sir, you know what? It looks like all of the practices going into Nirvana are going into a no- man's land. But I'm associated in artistic work, in culture work, in human development work, and all of that; and it tears me apart! Am I going into Nirvana? Or am I active in the world?" And so, for me that was so important. And, he really completely encouraged me, because he knew that I am staying in Auroville and that I follow Sri Aurobindo's vision and his seeing. And he had a big laugh, and he said, "Nothing wrong! Nothing wrong with doing all the beautiful things, and to being creative, and to working with children, and all of that -- if it is on the basis of non-attachment." Yeah?
So, basically, if we are in this process of purification, and we follow our natural levitational urge into Oneness, and find it within; and, we basically also come into manifestation and I in the Bhoga of it. That's the polarity to Yoga, and Bhoga and Roga. We transform through the Shuddi; and then, actually, we can achieve Siddhi. Then we can achieve this, this perfected being, basically who is here; who is in the world, with the world, but, also, not of the world.
Nisha Srinivasan: Wow! I would like to address some questions from the audience, now. There's one from Kishan, from Maitri Space in Ahmedabad, asking this question. He asks: "One of the expressions of harmony is balance. I would love to learn what are the other pertinent expressions?"
Aurelio: Yeah. Balance is a beautiful image of harmony, but harmony is actually also integration, as we spoke of before. I can be in harmony, when I am in peace with all the elements, which are surrounding me. Another effect of harmony is coherence. I feel like whatever is happening, everything is, everything is connected. There's an interconnectedness among everything.
I think another factor of harmony is humility -- that we actually realize we are only a part of it; we are only a particle of this whole thing. We are only one cellular organism amongst this whole expression of the whole organism of Gaia. So, humility. Since it's not -- I cannot create that harmony; I'm part of it. How can I feel like the ocean in the drop -- which is this beautiful chant, which we had started.
I think also, harmony is a journey. It is not a fixed state. It's a process. Harmony is evolving. Actually, I used to say: "I'm standing for harmony. This is my life's cause." But then, I realized that so many processes which are not harmonious. And, so, progressive harmony. It's not the product. Harmony is not the product. Harmony is a journey.
Nisha Srinivasan: Wow! We have another question: "Can music heal me, even if I consciously do not have an aptitude to understand that music?"
Aurelio: That's a beautiful question, because that's the magic of music. Music, in certain strata of the Brahmanical society, or the Western elite society -- music goes through the brain. You know, when we perceive the classical music, we know which rhythm is working in all of that, and which melody structures are there...
But the beauty of music is music not only works directly into the heart, into the emotional, vital being; but music works musical vibrations, and that's why we are working with the elements of music; which is sound. Sound works directly on the physical. So, even if I have no understanding of music, the musical waves and frequencies have a direct impact, not only on my emotional body but also on the physical body.
Nisha Srinivasan: Thank you, Aurelio. There's this question from Aanchal: "How can one attune oneself and make that inner voice prominent, so that the outside noise doesn't shatter that inner voice? And, how to find that inner voice and build resilience?" I think, maybe you can talk about some of your practices here, that can help?
Aurelio: Let's say I'm able to do my -- I don't know -- ten, twelve, fourteen, hours of work, daily because I have also two, three hours of inner work; and I think that's crucial nowadays in this intensive time; which humanity is facing; that we do have an inner practice. I was very inspired. I had been with many teachers whom I considered really very special and enlightened beings, and each one of them still was in their practices and took a retreat every year and all of that.
But, again, music is so accessible, and sound is so accessible. And we had a little exercise here -- the best way and the simplest, and most effective way of attuning oneself is humming. Maybe I'm speaking easily about it, but yes, that's what I did for one year. And that created a very thin foundation.
I had to continue in that, and continue daily to be in this practice of first listening; of emptying the vessel; being with what is without reaction, without attachment to it. And then from that, see what is inside, and connecting to whatever that is; and, if I don't hear it, I'm humming it, and teasing it, I'm inviting it with my hum. And in my hum, I'm finding it. And the beautiful thing is, I can do that as a morning practice; I can do it as a practice before, even when I'm lying down (at night) already. I can do this practice even in a train, in a transport, in an elevator. I can do it in so many different circumstances. It won't disturb anybody.
So humming! One of the foremost pioneers in sound healing worldwide, Jonathan Goldman -- he produced maybe 25 CD's on chakra sounds, angel sounds, and all of those things. He's now in his mid -seventies. And maybe as his legacy, he wrote a book on the humming effect, bringing in all of this science of what humming is doing; what is happening in the neuro-transmitters and all of that. But, ok, if we need to satisfy our mind having the scientific background!
But we know from the Indian tradition that in every breath, there is a sound, you know? In every, in and out breath, there's this basic mantra of ‘Soham’ there. And I have a chance to connect with that. So humming, I think, is possibly one of the most essential practices, and will become more practical and dominant for humanity in this challenging transition.
Nisha Srinivasan: Thank you. Thank you, that's so beautiful. There is a curious question, from one of our viewers. It reads: "Aurelio, I see a candle, lit next to you. I would like to understand why it is there."
Aurelio: I had lived for many years without electricity, and, I think it's a gift, because in the candle, in the flame, basically there's life. There's this life energy, and this life energy is rising; it's ascending. I had worked for many years with the Vedic hymns to Agni. That flame is inside. That flame is the flame of aspiration, and enthusiasm, and creativity. And, for me -- a flame for me, it's something essential.
I live on the running stream. The sound of water is the descending sound. In some sound healing practices, in some Sufi practices, we work with running water. We even create the sound of running water. Sometimes, I have a bucket, and I let water drop into that bucket. There's the pulse, the regularity of the water drop. That flame, for me, it brings me in touch with the mystery of life!
It was just this morning, actually. I had it in my morning practice. I had a candle and an oil lamp. We were using ghee lamps and oil lamps. A candle was easier to transport. And I thought, "Hey, I think it's important, also now in these online spaces, that we manage to share our life, our truth. Not that we just become human busts, and we see some fractions on a small laptop camera. And stuff like this. How can we bring beingness into our global togetherness through digital media? So that's why I thought -- maybe that would be an idea, to bring a flame into it.
Nisha Srinivasan: Very thoughtful. Thank you. And, from the mystery of light, we move into the mystery of sounds. Aurelio, would you be moved to offer us an immersion? Maybe three minutes, four minutes, whatever comes up for you.
Aurelio: Okay. I have, it so happened, that I found at home three bells, they are actually from a horse cart in Austria. You know, the horse is pulling these sleighs, and they have bells. And when I found this old thing for the horses, it was like a horse collar. I was so surprised that those bells were tuned! So I said, "This is what the old tradition did, that they even tuned the bells for the animals!"
What I want to share, it so happens that we have those instruments here. It's a gift from the lockdown. Actually in our community enterprise, and we work with 45 people. It brought that we could really order our work; we could reflect upon it, and we could listen deeper to what wants to emerge.
And one thing which emerged was these planetary frequencies. We have them in different sizes. I have this little (taps bell, ringing sound), here. There's one frequency. There's another one similar. So we have those little sound chips. We have sound arches and we have these elliptics. Let's say those sounds basically, they're tuned according to planetary orbits around the sun.
I have the orbit of Guru, of Jupiter, here. There is Mars. There is the orbit around the Sun, and they are not necessarily in harmony. Mars is going its own way. Yeah? Just for a few minutes, I invite you. We'll listen to the sounds. And basically, when I play that, I connect to the quality.
Let's say, the quality of Jupiter is a little bit overseeing what's happening in the inner part of the solar system. He carries wisdom, perspective, and goodwill. It's this goodwill-shining, blue planet out there. Then there's Mars, which is more directive. There's a willpower in it. There's an activity, an urge to do something. And somewhere in between, the Earth is trying to find its balance. It finds its balance of constantly staying focused with the Sun.
So we have these three images, how to say? We're traveling around in light. We are focused on the Sun. We have an impetus for action, hopefully for service-action. And, there is a coherent space of wisdom around it.
So those are the sounds, and I initiate them and close them with the Austrian sleigh bells, jingle bells. So, I just invite you into a listening space. Connect with your breathing. Connect with your body, with all the cells in your body. Connect with the images which are there for you. An image of focus on the central light, on the will power, action. And the wisdom coming out of that. [plays bells, cat meows in background, makes wind sounds through a conch shell]
Aurelio speaks a guided meditation:
... Letting the resonance of the sound merge with your breathing, with the sensations in the body, with the space around; and the possibility of sharing some of that positive, wholesome, resonance with some of your dear ones in need. Whenever we connect and generate some energy, the possibility of sharing it, sharing the metta, metta bhavana (loving kindness), sharing it with the whole of humanity. One humanity. On one amazing, beautiful, blue, planet. (rings high, light bell to end)
Nisha Srinivasan: Deep gratitude for that. Thank you so much for being with us today. In these ways, where you opened your heart, and you opened your studio for us. And, that, in turn, led to opening our ears and hearts at many levels. I would like to invite all of us into another minute of shared silence to end this talk. And, before that, I state out my wish, just like Aurelio stated out his wish.
May we all go from the thinking mind, to the seeing mind. And, may we all go from the feeling heart to the unified heart. And, most importantly, may we all go through life as Deep Listeners. And that is the gift that Aurelio has given us, today.
Thank you so much for this, and for being here. I thank all our participants for being here, and enriching this talk; and a huge bow of gratitude to our Awakin Talk’s back-end team, which has put this together in this way. Thank you so much for the sanctity that was generated here, today. And now, we'll have our minute of silence and leave in silence.
(singular bell sound rings)
(bell melody plays)
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