Awakin Talks » Amrita Singh, Arun Wakhlu and Yogesh Parmar » Transcript
Amrita Singh, Arun Wakhlu and Yogesh Parmar: Leadership and Love
Aditi opens with a song offering - “Kisi ki muskuraton pe ho nisaar…”
Hello everybody! Before I move on to this song, I would request everybody to please sit wherever you are with a supposition or with an intent that we are going to, through this song, spread a lot of smiles, a lot of love, and a lot of togetherness that this world needs, in the form of this love and through this song, today, here and now.
Kisi Ki Muskurahaton Pe Ho Nisar
Kisi Ka dard mil sake to le udhar
Kisi ke vaaste ho tere dil me pyar
Jeena isi ka naam hai
Sacrifice the self for another’s smile
borrow someone’s pain if you can
for others, when there is love in your heart
That’s called living!
Rohit: Thank you, Aditi, for your remarkable voice and your remarkable spirit. And I think the song is a perfect way to open the topic for today "leadership and love". And, as I was thinking about it yesterday, I started reflecting on the role of leadership in our lives? And as leaders, what is the role that we play in lives of people around us, whether it is our employees, our customers, our partners, the environment or even the society at large?
Right from the day we are born, we are part of organizations and systems. Perhaps we don't realize it -- whether it is family, whether it is the schools we go to, whether it is the corporations we show up to work for, the NGOs, the government -- all of these are organizations, which are all run and designed by leaders. What goals do these organizations work for, and also as importantly what is the process and means which they employ depends a lot on the culture which is established by the leaders, which perhaps at the very core, depends upon the beliefs, the world views, the values and at the fundamental level, who those leaders are as human beings.
And as I zoom out a bit and look at the society today, today our world seems to be facing many old problems and new problems. On one hand, there are so many challenges at the macro level -- like climate change, the inequality, this coronavirus pandemic which has deeply exposed the interconnection of all our fates. At the group level also, as we engage in organizations, we are seeing that employee disengagement is at such a high level globally. Even in personal life, as we go through this progress, what we are seeing is that for many of us, as we grow into material comforts, we often struggle with subtler issues like a sense of direction, issues like health, purpose, relationships, satisfaction, peace and joy. So, many old problems are there and many faces of new problems are emerging. And in some ways the lives of leaders are no different.
So, we have seen in the world around us, what leadership for power looks like, what leadership for votes looks like, what leadership for profit looks like, and I would say that we have even seen what leadership for impact or leadership for purpose looks like.
Something which is not often spoken or seen in action or explored and that's the intent for this conversation -- what does leading with love look like? What are its properties and characteristics? How does it affect the various challenges and opportunities which we have at hand today at an individual, at a group and at a system level?
We have three wonderful people to explore this topic today. Not only have they been leaders in their own lives, in their own remarkable external and internal journeys, but they have also supported many many other people, in big and small ways, in discovering more wholeness and wellness in their leadership. In discovering, more love in their leadership.
People we have today are -- Arun. He has been in this space for the last forty years, one of the pioneers in this space, integrating leadership and spirituality. Lot of his work has been manifested through Pragati Leadership -- an organization which he started. He is also actively involved in Pragati Foundation. He has also done some incredible work in actually building peer-to-peer peace dialogues between people, between children, between India and Pakistan, which I thought was a phenomenal initiative. Thank you Arun, for joining us on this talk today.
We also have Yogesh, who is one of the leading behavioral scientists in Asia. He was nominated among top 100 emerging leaders in Asia. He is the founder of "Game Changers" and has worked with tens of thousands of leaders and people across the world, across all the continents, in terms of -- finding the mobiosity, the balance of inner and outer work in their lives. He is someone who is very moved by performing arts and also philanthropy, and is engaged in numerous big and small philanthropy projects.
And, last but not the least, we have Amrita, who is the founder of "Back to Source" coaching, which is her attempt to integrate our timeless wisdom, which comes in scriptures, and bring it to our corporate lives. She has been a former business leader as well. After having a successful startup for daycare, she stepped out of that. And now this has been her offering to the world. And it is remarkable how in small ways, she brings the spirit of kindness and love in all her interactions, whether professional or personal.
Before I hand it over to you, given that we have the creative license, I just want to show some visuals to shine light on some of the lesser known aspects which, I think, make all of you who you are and inspire so many like me.
So, this is a photo I could lay my hands on. I think this a photo which shines light on who Arun is. I can't even make it if Arun is there in the photo or not, but that's pretty much part of the story -- of how his leadership is not about himself. So here they are somewhere in Pune, installing a peace pole, with a group of friends, and this is not long back, this is just a few days ago on ‘World Peace day’. And he says -- “Every single breath of ours is orchestrated by a deeper systemic intelligence”
This is something which came up when Amrita and I spoke for the first time few days ago, and she said -- a beautiful incident -- she said that ‘the doors of my heart and my house are always open’. So in Bombay, she lives in an apartment and, there are there are a lot of support staff in any community. So she said -- my doors are always open and she adds “And, one of the biggest things, which makes me proud, is that any security, the people like security guards have the confidence and the trust that they just show up at my house and say, "I'm feeling very hungry, can you give me a snack or can you give me a drink to sip, I'm feeling very thirsty." So this is the spirit. "Atithi Devo Bhava" is something which is very overheard and we all have learned since childhood in India, but this is something which she embodies.
And this was one of the older pictures, which I found on the internet from Yogesh. And he says that "how might we offer compassion from a space where we step across the identities of who is the giver and who is the receiver and that kind of separation ceases to exist." So here he is, with a group of volunteers in an orphanage, somewhere in Delhi, bringing the cafe experience to all of them. Not as an expression of giving them food, but as an expression of being together and sharing joy together. Sharing joy which is in each of our hearts.
So with that, I will stop talking and invite all of our speakers to share any opening reflections and, the context is -- as we shared -- love is something... you know, I have been part of organizations on the business side as well as on the nonprofit side, but love is something which is not typically heard of in the leadership meetings or in the strategy planning of the organizations today. Or even in families. I don't know! So when we talk about the word leadership and love together, what are some stories or some visuals or some thoughts, or some experiences that brings up for all of you? Thank you so much!
Amrita: Thank you. Thank you, Rohit. Thank you everyone who's here on the call and special, special thanks to Aditi. You sang the song of my heart. It's from my grandfather's film, and I open all my sessions that I do, with that song. So I really feel that I'm at home. So thank you so much for bringing that to this session. And you know, Rohit, the picture and the landscape that you painted of the world and its great need, is very different from the world that I experience and create for myself. And I'd be happy to share some insights into that as we speak of leadership and love.
So at this age and stage where I'm in life today, I find that it serves me personally, to look at everything that is offered to me in life, from the space of how I see it as an individual and how I see it as part of a collective whole -- and that's really how I witness everything that is offered to me. And so when I look at leadership and love, I really look at it at an individual level, as "How I am going to lead this ship of mine with love. This ship of this body, mind and intellect, that I've been bestowed. And how am I going to lead that with love?" And that for me is the space of self-love and acceptance, which has been a journey for me and I have come and rested in this space of acceptance and self love. And then when I look at it the other way around from a collective, I look at it as how, how can I lovingly lead this ship that I have, whether it's my family, whether it's my friends, whether it's the community I live in, the organizations that I serve? How can I bring that spirit of love to everything that I do and offer?
So by profession, you know, I'm a life and leadership coach and I like to say it in that way because people always ask me -- so are you a life coach or are you a leadership coach? And I don't really see the difference between those two things, you know? And I, I cannot imagine a life where you're not a leader of your own life. And I can't imagine a leader who doesn't have a life. So I really don't see the difference between those two aspects at all.
And I feel really fortunate, and blessed, to be in a space, where I can exude this sense of love or what I call as, you know, Love with a capital L -- no expectation, just an offering, just the flow of abundance. Through every conversation I have, whether it's through a conversation, where I'm pitching for a new client or whether I'm engaging in just a conversation with friends, or a conversation like this, or through one-on-one coaching, all the work I do -- I hold really, that it is an expression of love.
And one of the things that I'm hugely committed to, through the work that I do, which I call my life's work, is to raise this consciousness amongst humanity, one conversation at a time. And to bring the sense of spirituality back to the boardrooms, because for me, spirituality is nothing other than an expression of pure love. And, you know, of the many authors -- I'm not a very avid reader, but I read a little bit -- and there is one thing which stayed with me, which is this person called Gary Zukav, and his work was a part of my father's collections, which I found in one of his collections of books when I was visiting him in Poona. And really he spoke about this aspect, which stayed with me -- "In life, when you sit down, when you reflect and you put down all the things, there are some things which you actively engage with from a space of love, and there are some things that frighten you and that you're scared of."
And there will always be those two aspects, of love and fear. And what I learned from him and what I bring to my life is that I choose love no matter what, and that's how I lead my life. That's how I engage with it. And in my work, I've found another phrase very recently, which describes the work we do and which is called spiritual partnering -- and I just love that! It's just such a beautiful way to express, you know, what we offer and do. And it's the sense of this conscious path in which we relate with each other, as individuals or as groups, where the common intention is to serve a higher purpose. And it's this recognition of this oneness, an unequivocal oneness, is the space that we step into, through the work that we do.
One of my dreams really, is to facilitate leadership work, this inward journey with music. I know what the title track of that will be. It will be (she sings a popular song from a Hindi movie) Chukar Mere Man Ko, Kiya Tu Ne Kya Ishara (You touched my heart, what a beautiful nudge). Because that's all that I can really do. I can only make space, connect from my heart to your heart and just point to that direction and just allow that love to reveal yourself to yourself. That's really how I see my work, as Back to Source. I'm walking that journey, and all of you are invited. Thank you.
Rohit: Beautiful. Thank you Amrita for that opening reflection. May I invite Yogesh now
Yogesh: Thank you Rohit. Amrita, Thank you. I'll take the liberty to complete the next two lines. Sings "Badla Yeh Mausam, Lage Pyara Jag Sara" (When you touched my heart, you nudged me, and it's strange that it seems the weather outside has changed, and the whole world outside seems more beautiful). (Amrita laughs)
That leaves me with 5 minutes of not knowing what quite to say after that, because
Badla Yeh Mausam, Badla Jag Sara (This weather changed, the whole world changed)
But then what? That's it right ? But many, many moving pieces, in what's already been said. I saw Arun Bhai's photograph and there was that systemic integration, which was the title there, the peace pole that they planted. And what came alive for me was when we talk about love and leadership and when Amrita spoke about when people ask her if she is a life coach or a leadership coach, was that she said, how can those two things be different? And really, I think in, in many ways, in my understanding and experience, leadership is about unlocking the spectrum between the binary .These binaries are not just in terms of decision-making - the small and big decisions, the micro-macro decisions that we make. But the fact is that the world that we live in wittingly or unwittingly is invested in always telling us that the vocabulary we can use is that of "Or". "This or That." "This or that."
I can have a few soulful relationships, or I can have many shallow relationships and, well, that's false, it's a tyranny because it's a false choice there. Right?
So leadership to me is about being able to see the entire rainbow, the entire spectrum and seeing that there are so many, many, many, many different ways of dancing and really, you know, gently and sometimes not so gently interrogating how we define the loaded word "success". Right? And so to me, from where I see this, as I've grown into the work that we do with behavioural sciences and the work that we do with leaders, it appears to me that in some ways, our definition of what constitutes success has narrowed and narrowed and narrowed and narrowed and narrowed. To use a metaphor, its like saying that there's only one way to sing. Right? And when you say that there's only one way to sing, is it possible that a lot of us believe that we cannot sing to begin with? I think so. That's the thing, one of the central challenges so far as leadership is concerned is being able to see the spectrum and unlock it. Just look at the many, many ways of dancing in the entire spectrum. That's one.
Then I think the second bit about leadership which is how do I see uncertainty for what it is? And why the self and people around us need to let go of the illusion of control. Right? I don't use those words lightly because illusion is what it is and I'm happy to kind of elucidate just very quickly. If you go to aboriginal cultures around the world, if you go to shamans around the world, if you go to unlettered people, native cultures, anywhere, South America, Australia, New Zealand, Maoris, in India and if you, if you have a conversation with them in more or less ways, they would say that -- "Pehle hum paida hua, phir hum school gaye, phir naukri lag gayi, phir shaadi ho gayi, phir bache ho gaye."
(First I was born, then I went to school, then a job was fixed, then marriage happened, then kids happened.) Okay?
However, if you go to a person who is literate, who's educated, who's lettered, they'd say I was born, I went to school, I went to college, I got a job, I married and then I had kids. And to me, in a sense education today, the way we define it, gives us an illusion of control.
Whereas the other person is (like) - I am really just in allowance of what life has to offer to me. So I think being able to see that. You spoke so much at the top of our call about organizations and how all of us, in many contexts, function in our organizations. Selling uncertainty as risk is a $6 trillion business every year, right? The difference between risk and uncertainty being that when you're talking about risk, past behaviors can be used to model present choices and predict future results. That's what happens in a casino in Las Vegas, for example, that is risk. But the world that we live in is uncertain, which is to say that the number of factors at play itself cannot be accounted for, let alone designed for. Right?
So I think I believe leadership is those two things we know - one is about unlocking the spectrum. The second is about being in allowance of what is. And being able to see fundamentally that the life that we're living in is one of uncertainty. And of course complexity.
About Love - In my own experience, the big battles in life for me have been the battles for love. And as somebody who's spent for better or for worse an unhealthy amount of time, the last 15 years, thinking about these things, it appears to me that when I say that my big battles are our battles for love, it is mostly being loved from three kinds of spaces. So one is, it maybe love that was denied to me from some of the primary caregivers when I was growing up. And that is the kind of validation that I'm seeking. And, you know, I want to do things to be able to believe that I'll become worthy of love. Second, maybe love that I'm seeking in terms of intimate relationships, friendships. And then the third is the kind of love that I'm seeking from the community, which is what is known as fame. Right? And it appears that I want all of those kinds of love because I'm hoping that if my primary caregivers can love me, that if my friends can love me, my intimate partner can love me, that if the community can love me, then I should certainly be worthy of love, of self love. And to me, it seems like a goose chase. I mean, it's taken a few years and many false attempts, so the epiphany is that one can never do things for self-love. One can only ever do things from self love . I feel complete at this moment. Thank you.
Rohit : Beautiful. Thank you Yogesh. Over to you Arun.
Arun: Thank you very much Rohit and a very hearty good morning, good evening to all our viewers and a big big thank you to you, to Aditi, Yogesh, Amrita, Nipun and all the other volunteers who made this happen. Such a joy to be here, and I'm particularly happy that this is happening on Dussera which is the Indian tradition of the choices between good and evil, between darkness and light, between fear and love.
So I think humanity is at a crossroads right now and at an immense crossroad. We have all kinds of scenarios happening in the world - we have armed conflict, we have compassionate work, we have heroic acts, all kinds of things. And I was really inspired by what Amrita has shared. You know, she said that the world that I choose is really my world. So there's no such thing as ‘The world’. Within that ‘The World’ there are worlds, which we create through our own individual thoughts, words, and actions.
So if I choose to look at it in one way I see fragmentation all around, I see fragmentation based on race, based on skin color, based on gender nationality. I see conflicts, armed conflicts, religious strife, huge challenges on orientations, by political orientation or sexual orientation or whatever, I can see a world of fragmentation and conflict. But if I shift my attention to the heroes like Yogesh and Amritha and Nipun and so many other wonderful people on the planet, I see a world of compassion. I see a world of kindness. I see a world of abundance and joy also. So friends, I think I'd like to emphasize that the world we are in is not a generic thing. It is a personal choice. So the world can be burning up, but you can still be in a cocoon or an Island of humanity and love as pretty much Servicespace is, for example our experience in the laddership pod. It was a beautiful family of wholeness and joy. So that's one thing I'd like to share with you.
Now leadership is about creating new worlds. For me, leadership is about creating new worlds and creating new worlds is about starting to think in new ways because you create worlds through your thoughts.
So if I choose thoughts of fragmentation, if I choose thoughts of love, that's what I'm going to manifest in the world. The world is simply a manifestation of our thoughts. So if leaders are people who create new futures and if the thoughts create futures, I think the task of all of us as leaders, at the individual level and at the collective level is to choose love; to choose thoughts of joy, of peace, of abundance, of wholeness, and not get carried away by the fear and fragmentation that we see in the world.
Aditi's song and of course, Amritha's reinforcement of that reminds me of a little acronym, which I love, which is LIFE is Love In Full Expression; so make LIFE Love In Full Expression. Make every single moment as love in full expression.
And I think the key here is once you start letting go of the small "i" and you drop the trouble that comes from I, I, I, I, I and you know, you drop that I trouble and you begin to see life (laughs) in its beauty and wholeness. Miraculous things happen on their own. In Pune we have a whole lot of people working in the education sector, in the sectors of a whole food, safe food for all, and if you ask me "Arunbhai, did you do it?" I would say "No way." No way I did it. Hundreds of us are doing it together. There's so many people doing wonderful work in education. So again, I want to emphasize it is not as if the leader does anything. He or she creates a space and a field for the emergence of beautiful things to happen, and that happens best when we are anchored in love. It happens best when we are anchored in the peace of the heart. I just want to end with a little vision. I have the vision of thousands and thousands and millions of awakened youth anchored in love, murmurating like fireflies all over the planet, all over the planet, bringing in a new era of joy, peace and abundance for all. This is my dream and all are invited to be part of it, and we are already part of it. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Rohit: Beautiful. Thank you, Arun, and as I hear all of you, one of the themes which, sort of seems to be common in everything, which all of you are sharing is that this notion of choice, that we have a choice. To choose our stories, to choose how we see the world and how we engage with it.
And, you know, coming from someone from, you know, an Indian background, and I think it applies perhaps, to the whole world also to different degrees. When you grow up in a society where sort of your career paths and your life trajectory is almost set. You are born, you have to go to a school, and so on. There's very little time to slow down from the moment you are born, that you always have your to-do list, and the next list. This is the next thing to be done, this is the next thing to be achieved. And in that, well, as we spoke about that love, experiencing, exploring yourself, figuring out what this life is, does not seem to find space in that ever expanding to do list.
So whatever you are all saying I think that sounds great. As I listen to it as a listener, it feels that that is the aspiration which I want to carry that I know that the beauty and magnanimity of what we are all speaking here, But how do we really build pathways to that?"
Like if I am in a business school, which I was, I think there is little room to explore these things. If I am a CEO of a listed company and they've got next quarterly results coming up, I don't feel that there's a space in my life to work without agenda, without expectation, or I could be a leader of a non profit organisation as well and its the same thing.
So in that way, it would be really useful to hear a personal story from each of you, that what were your personal pathways where you got to reflect on some of these issues? What were the moments of shift in your lives? And some reflections of how perhaps we all might create those pathways in our lives also?
Amrita : I am happy to share. So just to put a little bit of context and linking it back to Aditi's song is that I come from mixed Hindu and Muslim parenting. As I grew up, this song "kisiki muskarahat" (someone's smile) was like a prayer at our home that we used to sing every single day. That was our prayer. That's the first song that we learned. That's how my parents raised us.
I think that through that whole process, there was a part of me that was seeking. I didn't know seeking what, but it was always seeking. And, this song really gave me the essence of how I can live my life. When I was little, I didn't know it, I just sang it, but it's somehow seeded that thought. As I grew up and I went through the, like, you spoke about the traditional aspects of go to college, then depending on your marks take up science, arts, or commerce not really thinking any decision from the head or the heart, just by what the circumstances were and engaging with life. As I connect the dots backward, very mechanically. Even to the point I would say Okay, now it's time to get married let me get married. And I just got lucky from a space of love because my husband spoke of unconditional love from the first day.
I had no idea what that was it, but I just got lucky. Right! And so I was planted in a space of unconditional love and then, okay. Now married long enough, have children, did this now do this, now do this. So it just went pretty much like that. I think that went on till I was 35, but I kept seeking and I kept what I call "spiritual shopping". And at some point I arrived, I think at a space where I just knew that this is it and my shopping stopped. It's unexplainable what that feeling was, and then I went into the space of this inward journey, and yet, as I was embracing this inward journey for myself, it was longing for this external expression and I had a no way to find it. From working in the corporate sector in lifestyle, I moved to a space of taking care of children into daycare for 15 years, and now I moved into a space of what I call self-care and that's really how I hold the work that we do as coaches. Our own self-care and supporting the self-care for others.
And when I did this coach training program, I think that's really the story, which is a spiritual based coaching program. I mean, we share that upfront in the way that we engage with people. It is a spirituality based coaching program. I experienced that merging of my Inner journey and my outer pursuits, I always say that, you know, through my, the grace of my spiritual master, who I fondly call Maa, I was able to understand at least that "I am divine".
Through the work that I do at BacktoSource coaching, I got an expression to that sense of divinity. From all the conversations, that I've had for the last, now, eight years, I noticed that leaders are yearning for it. Some of them know it and don't know how to engage with it. While some of them don't know it and when you speak about it, it's like a breath of fresh air. They're scared to engage with it, how is it going to manifest. And I think being in that space of being able to partner with them, hold that space, for when they are ready to engage with it, is what I find meaningful. And I really see this whole, as I think, that we all dream the same dreams, we all have the same challenges, we call it by different names, but at the end of the day, we're all seeking also the same thing and it's no different for leaders or for organizations or at any age or stage. So that's really my take on it , back to you , Arun Bhai.
Arun : Thank you, Amrita and I'll take it next. Thanks for sharing this, really beautiful. I heard echoes of our own journey in this module shared. So I think spiritual quest, Rohit, was pretty much alive in me as a child, as a young boy growing up in Kashmir, in Srinagar.
I think there were always these questions, like "What's the end of the universe." If you reach the end, when if you go after that, what's there? And, "Who exactly is this person?" I'd look at my eyes in the mirror and ask myself who is this person, what's happening here, what's going on? So I think the spiritual ferment was on, and in my days as a young student of engineering at IIT Delhi and we studied Chinmayanand and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, and did a lot of spiritual shopping as Amrita put it beautifully. Really searched, searched, searched. Went to the shivirs of Brahmakumaris, and all kinds of things. And then, joined the Tata administrative service and started getting into organizations and worked in Tata motors and all that. And I think the question that arose in me, "How can businesses be centred around the evolution of human beings." How can business be a means, for the evolution of people and the evolution of the planet and so on. And a question that haunted me at that time was, is business for life or is life for business. And I think the answer was very clear in my mind that business is supposed to serve life. So then the question was ok, what next. So after a few years at the Tata administrative service, my wife Anu and I decided to shift to Pune. So we came to Pune, travelled in a Maruti 800 car, all across from Jamshedpur to Pune with two young daughters.
We then joined an organization called Map Consultants. There was a wonderful person called Ashok Khanna there and spent some time with him and then he passed away within just a few months of joining. And that's when we started Pragati, in 1986. So, it's more than 34 years now. We've been on the path of how can wholeness, spirituality, universal wellbeing become the central focus of business. And when we started, Rohit and friends, when we said "love and humanity and compassion", thirty-six years back, people said "You're trying to make snowballs in hell". Business is like a furnace and you guys are setting up a snowball factory. What do you guys think, are you going to succeed -- Pragati leadership, evolution, love, caring, loving? That was 36 years back, but touch wood , by the grace of God, by the hard work of my colleagues at Pragati leadership ,support of a Anu and partnership of Anu and all of us today I can say that we have cut up pathway through a jungle, through a forest, where many are now moving, many are moving on that pathway. So, I'm very happy to say that.
Lastly, I want to say that if you want to catch fish. Say, I love Belgian chocolates, I love them, they melt in the mouth, they're gorgeous, but if I want to catch a fish, I will not put a Belgian chocolate on the hook. No, that would be silly because the fish doesn't want Belgian chocolate. The fish wants a worm. So, when I talk to business leaders, we don't talk love, we don't talk spirituality. We said, "Do you want more engagement? Do you want more innovation? Do you want more integration?" They say, yes. "Do you want leaders to take responsibility? Do you want them to be energized?" They say yes. And then we say that "Ok, mindfulness, spirituality, love, is the way."
And, and last thing I want to say is we don't keep that separate in a separate box. No, we don't say spirituality is one box and tools, techniques like open space technology, appreciative inquiry, coaching is separate box. NO. Like Amrita said, we make them into a beautiful "AND” and we made them into an “AND”. There's no dichotomy. I can be an outstanding coach only when I'm anchored in the sacredness of who I am. And I see the sacredness of the other person, vividly and clearly and that guides me on what to do as a coach.
It's only as a leader when I'm anchored in love and wholeness, that I know what to do and how to make the results happen that are good for the environment, good for stakeholders, good for everyone , for all stakeholders. So net net, it works and it works beautifully.
Amrita : Thank you for paving the path Arun bhai ,it makes our work so much easier. Thank you.
Rohit : Beautiful. Yogesh, any reflections?
Yogesh: I'll be brief here. So I hear what you were referencing , Rohit, in terms of CEO of listed company cannot afford to be agenda less, etc . So, I will share three things very quickly. So one is that it is, I think, abundantly clear, that we are trying to change the wheels of a vehicle that is in motion.
We are sitting in that vehicle, we're going from place A to place B and we're trying to change the wheels while the vehicle is in motion, which is in other words to say that we cannot afford, in a sense to be ideal , for ideological purity, but we can keep iterating, re- iterating, iterating, re-iteraring. As we keep playing the slot machines in a Vegas casino. And I don't know why I am invoking Vegas casinos today. You keep playing the slot machines and it is the law of averages that dictates that you would hit a smaller or a big jackpot. And if enough of us keep playing the slot machines, then its person agnostic, like it might not be me, it might be Rohit, it might not be Arun Bhai, it might be Amrita, so somebody will hit it. So if you have enough people, iterating, then I think there is that opportunity to, kind of, ordain a new reality.
So, for instance, even within the deeply entrenched capitalist kind of, ways of the world, about 8 months back now, we wanted , in the light of one of the strictest lockdowns, anywhere in the world, which was in India, we felt moved to offer some of our workshops online. We'd never done this before in the ten years of Game Changers, we were not sure if our workshops would translate in a virtual setting, because our offerings in many ways, are about transcending content. So they're dependent on intensity, intimacy, eye contact, etc and when we offered a workshop, the idea was to offer once, people would come , we'd be able to raise funds, the idea was to pay forward , to be able to raise some funds for people, for daily wage workers at the frontline.
People came in, they liked what they saw and they did two things: they decided to pay forward and they decided to spread the word forward. One workshop became two, two became five, five became ten, ten became fifty and that inspired us to change the business model of Game Changer. So now after the lockdown has gotten over, we do ten days of facilitation every month.
And this is, keeping it as egalitarian as possible. Anybody can come in and now this is where the iteration comes in. What we're trying to do is, we're delineating your investment from your experience. So we live in a world with fixed expenses. So, the bills need to be paid for, but we're going to say at the same time, I'm going to take one step forward and say I am going to leave it to you. You come in and see what you want, if you're enjoying the experience, then if you feel moved to contribute, then you contribute. Which is, I think, a significant shift from saying -- If you pay this much , you will get this which is like an extractive model of capital.
So I think the systems of the world dictate that a radical shift, kind of does not have the legs to sustain beyond a point. But I think if we keep iterating, reiterating, iterating, reiterating, then our new reality may yet be possible. And I think Service Space is as good an example of that and everything that Service Space has done. And, you know, I’ve heard Nipun Bhai speak about it in so many, many, many ways. So, I think it's about the spaciousness. It's about injecting the spaciousness and then say that, okay, if this is what you feel called to do, then that is what you do. And that is what you feel called to do, then that is what you do.
Rohit: Beautiful. Thank you. And, on that iteration, Yogesh, and also to a point which Arun, you were raising that when you go to businesses, you don't talk about spirituality. You talk about building engagement in business and improving the business results. To that, there is a question which I really like, and I would like to present here. It was shared by, someone in the audience.
As Yogesh said, it is that it is clear that when we are trying to build pathways, we are trying to discover, it will take a lot of experimentation, slowing down, and things like that. So, there could be two approaches for this for leadership: to focus on inner development and accept whatever outer success comes, in whatever form, as a derivative of it. And the other is to focus on outer success, which typically translates into maximizing shareholder value or stakeholder value, or if you're an NGO, then maximizing impact and things like that, while building a culture of “conscious engagement”, which is aligned with inner development.
So, both sound similar, but, what is put as the primary objective can make a radical difference in the progress that you make. So, any reflections on that?
Arun: So, may I go first?
Rohit: Yes, please. Go ahead.
Arun: I'm changing the sequence that Amrita was saying. So I think this is a very, very beautiful question. And, I go back to what Yogesh said in his opening remarks, which is defining success.
How exactly are you defining success? So if you define success in a very limited way, like for example, making more money, then you are trapping yourself into an understanding of life that will be extremely limiting. I mean, we all know that we can't survive even a few minutes without oxygen, so it's vital, vital, absolutely vital.
But what kind of a life would it be if all I did was collecting oxygen cylinders? Why? Because oxygen is vital. Hello? Oxygen is a beautiful means for you to lead a loving life. But what kind of life is it where I'm collecting oxygen cylinders? So in the same way in business, if we define success in a holistic way, where there are different kinds of value which are there: could be spiritual value or emotional value, physical value, intellectual value, learning value, community value and environmental value, clean air value, hundreds of different kinds of value - I think the problem becomes a lot easier. That's one.
Now coming to inner development and outer development. I think one of my favorite quotations is by a German mystic Meister Eckhart. And what he said was that "the outer work can never be great if the inner work is small and the outer work can never be small if the inner work is great." So what I was saying, what Meister Eckhart is saying is that if your inner work is expanded and wholesome and open hearted, like Amrita’s doors, and heart, the outer work is bound to expand. is bound to grow.
So if you are anchored in love, if you're anchored in no-mind, if you're anchored in the peace and wholeness of the heart, and then you work from that space from happiness and not for happiness, the outer work will unfold in the way that life wants it, not the way the ego wants it, not the way the ambition wants it, but the way the life wants it.
And that is the trust you have to have. And practically, what that means is - Keep looking to the sun of love, and keep walking in that direction - the shadows of outer success will follow you, and even if they don't, it doesn't matter. You're focused on the real thing, which is the infinite love of the heart. I'm complete.
Amrita: Beautiful! Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I just wanted to share an example to illustrate what we're all saying actually, in different words. This is from some work that we did, for one of these Big Five organizing, management consultancy, kind of, consultants or whatever they're called.
It was a conversation on this inner and outer work that I was having with this leader for almost two years. Then one day, he called me up and he said, "Will you come to lead and facilitate our business strategy meet? We have our goals and we're planning for the next financial year, etc."
So I said, "You know the [kind of] work that I do, so how...? The only way that I can support it is by raising the level of awareness about who they are, what they're here to do and how they're going to contribute. That's all the work that I do." So he said, "Yes, that's exactly what I'd like for us to partner, because the way that I hold it (and it was the vision of this leader), is that if we're able to get them to anchor in themselves, the numbers will happen. It will just flow. So we started this work then, and I go back and do this work with them every year - and attrition has fallen in the same people. These people work with the government sector and I am so hopeful of this world that we all create together. Because every (subsequent) year from a space of self-awareness it has then moved to a conversation around contribution. Then, it's moved to a conversation around compassion. Then it's moved into a conversation around inclusiveness. Each year just facilitating these conversations in that work, in this so-called corporate sector, and allowing that fragrance to spread far and wide. They take it back to their homes, to their families and come back the next day - we do two days with the organization - and they come back the next day with their families. It's such a beautiful space of integration - of your inner reflecting your outer, or your inner accepting your outer, really. And the outer, reflecting your inner. It's such a beautiful dance! Just wanted to share that. Back to you, Yogesh. You were going to say something. Thank you, Arun Bhai.
Yogesh: Thank you. I don't know if the audience heard you, Amrita, when you said "so-called corporate sector", which gave me pause. "So called corporate" (laughter).
So, two things really - one is the hypothesis that everything outside of love is an adaptive behavior that we form in the absence of love. Now, these adaptive behaviors take many, many forms. These adaptive behaviours can either take (the form of) ambition, achievement, - "substitutes", some are close substitutes, some are cheap substitutes, some are part substitutes.
Two, of the many, many people out there - having just read Elon Musk's autobiography and Steve Jobs' autobiography. There are many autobiographies, but the ones in which they have themselves spoken about their journey - they've spoken at great length about how success, in the way that they defined it, actually damaged them. In Job's case, it was really about validation from his parents. He was an adopted child. He was abandoned by his biological parents. In Musk's, it was the attention that he did not receive while he was growing up. It is easy to couch it in the language of market capitalization and say, "50 million, 60 billion, a 100 billion!" but the point is, the main thing is to keep the main thing, the main thing. Alright. And to that end to be just able to see that. Like Arun Bhai said, love is all we need, but a little Belgian chocolate doesn't hurt. But the point is, if you keep the Belgian chocolate as the main thing, then getting to love can become quite tough. So you know, you can go from knowing to knowledge. But knowledge to knowing is a far more arduous journey, because knowledge gives you the illusion of control - again to kind of to go back to the same thing and it stops you from living. It stops you from having skin in the game. But when you begin with love, so this is again to say that when you institutionalize, when you have your lived experience, then you are in touch with the earth and you're touching you in touch with the soil. And then of course you're free to pursue what you want to pursue. But the other way around - Like after $35 billion in the bank and people telling you only what you want to hear, calling your own bluff is a lot more difficult -which is what happened with Jobs and what happened with Musk, let alone us lesser mortals.
So yeah, that's the hypothesis and I don't know how scientific the hypothesis is, but you know, all we need is love and when love is absent or when I'm not able to receive love, I develop a range of adaptive behaviors -which can take me as close to love as possible. And some days they do, and then some days they don't, but eventually all roads lead to that same home.
Rohit : Beautiful. Thank you, Yogesh. You might have heard this adage "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." I was reading up a bit and saw then there is a lot of convincing evidence that in a way, power actually desensitizes us to others' needs. As a leader, I think one of the main qualities people look for in a leader is that the leader should be sensitive to your needs, should be able to understand what you want and wholesomely serve that. But there's research that as you get more power, you starting becoming more insensitive. It's not that you become a bad person, but it's just how our brains are operating. So, any examples or insights on how do we balance this very inherent conflict? That as we accumulate/ come into more power, how do we not lose the empathy and connection?
Yogesh: So, as I am hearing you Rohit, the first thing that kind of appeared in consciousness is that, there's only one thing and we kind of present this in the work that we do, but there's only one thing that you cannot have as a leader increasingly. And this is a departure from, you know, the Zeitgeist, which was present even five or ten years ago .
Today, the only thing you cannot afford to have as a leader is answers. So, as against five or ten years ago, and today it continues to be the culture in a lot of organizations that as a leader, you are supposed to be the smartest person in the room. You're supposed to be the cleverest person in the room. You're supposed to be the sort of the one who has all the answers.
And yet what we are seeing is, that when you have the answer, and when that answer is presenced, as when you -as the leader - presence that answer, it blunts the intelligence in the room. Right? Which is to say that, I'm paraphrasing here - that if you want your team to build a world class ocean liner or a world-class ship, you can either tell them the 'what' and the 'how' and tell them this is where you need to source it from, these are the greatest building techniques, these are the best practices etc. You can do that and that's one way of leading people. Or, you can simply 'invest' in getting them to love the sea. And if they love the sea enough, if they have the desire now to go and wade into the great seas, then they will automatically do what they need to do. Then the ship only becomes a means, and because you have to go to the middle of the ocean, it is then by default. Then the ship doesn't become an end to itself. You 'want' to go to the middle of the ocean. So, yeah, just two things that appeared when I heard you say that, thank you.
Rohit : Beautiful. It reminds me of the quote that today we need leaders who are not heroes, but 'hosts' for the goodness to arise. Thank you. Arun, Amrita?
Arun : I think just taking off on that quote, you know the earlier view of leadership has been the hero or heroine, command and control. I'm going to galvanize the people and mobilize people, I'll make things happen. And I think for years we have kind of got stuck in that mental image. Of the leader as a commander, a controller, a maker of things. Makers and shakers - and their picture is on the business magazines and so on, but given the kind of environment we are in, and given the needs of the world at this point, whether it's business or society, we need leaders who are really like just spaces. People who are hosts, who can catalyse the collective intelligence of people, who can see that everyone has a part to play, see that everyone is giving their gifts and creating community. And those kind of leaders are very, very different from the command and control leaders.
Now, the command and control leaders are the ones who will have 'power corrupts and power corrupts absolutely' because then they try and go for more and more outer power. But the host leader is dissolving more and more into the beautiful wonder that is life. He's dancing hand-in-hand in life, is guided by inner intuition and never says I did it. If you ask them did you do it ? They would say 'are you kidding me? Thousands and thousands of people.
I mean, if I ask Nipunbhai Mehta, "did you do Service space"? Honestly, he will say, "What are you talking about? There are 55,000 volunteers who are doing it. Not me. Rohit is doing it. Aditi and millions of people are doing it." So I think this is the shift needed.
Now in this shift, there are three points I want to make as to what that involves.
Number one, it involves working from no mind - No 'I'. So such leaders have to meditate and dissolve their 'I" in the ocean of love and compassion. So that's the first thing.
Number two, hold a humongous vision. Don't be scared, it'ss not your vision - It's life's vision. Hold that vision and say, this is life's vision and put it out there. And if someone says, how are you going to do it? You say, I don't know how I'm going to do it because I'm not doing it. I'm not there. And then you say the answer to how is yes, you say yes to the vision, you say yes to your dream and the universe will conspire to make it happen.
And the third thing, my favorite metaphor is as a leader, do not belong to hearts or spades or to clubs or anything - Be like the Joker. Now this card, you say -
Are you Clubs?
No, I'm not Clubs.
Are you an Ace?
No, I'm not an Ace.
Are you one?
But if I say Joker, can you be a two of Hearts for me?
Can you be an ACE of spades for me? Sure.
So the great leader of wholeness, wholesome leaders, who're leading from love and leading from that silence and emptiness of the heart are ever flexible, ever open to life. They say yes to life. And they do what has to be done in the moment, from a space of deep love and compassion. Amrita ...
Amrita : Thank you. I love that you present the joker, you know, and that's for me as much as I feel anchored in this sense of love and spirituality. And that's really my litmus test -when I engage that, whatever, however, the other person holds that space of spirituality, is there that sense of grounding in that sense of spirituality. And the second, you know, seemingly apparently opposite to it, but to me, it's just the flip side of the coin is 'Masti' and joy and fun. And, bringing those two together is really what makes life so wonderful and this whole beautiful celebration. Right? And I'm just reminded of this, of when I started working, when I finished my MBA and I got this job, in this government sector, in a government bank and, like my parents were also like wow, you got a government job, so life's set. Life is superb and life is like completely for you. Everything is going well for you. And I felt a sense of disillusionment and I left, because I feel that while I've done so well, I want to make this contribution. The need to make this contribution was high.
Then I moved into this space of working in this corporate sector again, and I say corporate sector - it's just the way that it's held- no Freudian slip. It's just the way that we look at it as separate, but it's so much part of us and integrated within us. Right? So I joined this corporate sector, became this high flyer, high potential and I developed this sense of arrogance that life is happening as I'm making it happen. And then moving into that mindset, you know, that without me nothing can happen.
And then when I embraced the sense of spirituality or this inward journey, and this whole aspect of being this instrument through which HIS music flows, is how I have moved through these areas of my life. And now I know that there is this space in which all of us exist and there's no difference. And it's life's just happening as each one of us. It's that space of allowance that Yogesh spoke about when we opened and just letting it just happen. It's like you're just reveling in that 'Masti' (fun) and enjoying it - it's so simple. It's really so simple. And yeah, I don't have words to express the simplicity of it really, but that's really how I experience it.
Yogesh : Beautiful.
Rohit : Beautiful, beautiful. There's so much richness in what all of you have shared and you could just go on and on further exploring these questions. But you know, we'll move to the audience questions. We'll take a few questions from the audience and thank you all for sharing very insightful questions. Before I do that, I just want to add something. I don't think we have enough time to go into it, but I think that we as a society expect so much from our leaders. So one thing which has stood out for me is really to give them also a break as leaders. Give them also a space of going through this journey of exploring, because it's so easy for all of us to fall in that trap where we are followers - where we are being led in some systems - to keep expecting and to keep expecting perfection from our leaders. And to that extent, I think we ended up creating a lot of isolation and segregation for them. So thank you all for showing up and in that way of creating a space of acceptance for the leaders. thank you.
And with that, I will step on to some of the audience questions and so there's a question by Prapti and there's a question by Cletus which I find similar. Prapti's asked that Amrita spoke about choosing love over fear. How can we really start taking small steps or big steps in that journey. Even Cletus asks this - that for me, I see that the love is real, but in this world today, there's so much hatred and there's so much fear, that how can I really start embodying love, a little bit more despite seeing what all is happening. So to me, this is a question of some practices or some interventions, which you in your own rich experience of working with others, could recommend.
Arun : Sure. So let me start by saying that it's a lovely and beautiful question. And a simple answer to it is - Take time to be still. Take time to be still and just listen to whatever is happening inside you, outside you. Just feel like the sky which watches the clouds go by. Listen to the sounds, just take time to be in the moment. Now you don't necessarily have to make this 20 minutes, 30 minutes or 15 minutes, even tiny pauses of one or two minutes, several times day develop your muscle of presence and mindfulness. So that is one.
The second thing is, in the world where you have fear and love and all kinds of things happen, keep your face towards the Light of Love -Inward-and focus on the good things happening in the world. When you're facing the sun, you will not see the shadows, the shadows are behind you. So keep walking with your face turned towards the sun. Now I'm not saying be blind to all the evil in the world, but keep steadily focusing on the good that is present in you, in others, which is like the sun behind the clouds -Which is like the presence of the Divine, sacred in each moment. Keep tuned to that. Silences help you to remember that.
Amrita : Beautiful. Thank you for sharing that imagery of the sun, it is hugely powerful. And, my response to that really is, in addition to what Arunbhai said of cultivating that space of stillness, I think that cultivating the muscle of trust is also an integral personal practice and comes from the space of trusting myself and trusting in the goodness that exists within me and all around me, and shining the light on that. Because fear is like, it's just because you're stepping into an unknown space, that's why you fear it. Right? But if you trust that there is an energy within you and all around you that will carry you to that unknown, it just makes it so much more adventurous - the journey to the unknown, and you know that you're like enveloped, you will be guided, guaranteed. You will be protected and there's no two ways about it. And it comes from building that trust in yourself and trust in others. And don't doubt. You know it lies in small things - like when you go to buy vegetables and the vegetable vendor will tell you a price. Trust that he is giving you the right price, don't haggle with him and say, it could have been this much, or just doubt anything. Just trust in the goodness of others and it will just begin to flow. That's how I see it.
Yogesh : Yeah, I'll take off from the reference of 'spiritual "shopping. I think Amrita mentioned it once and Arunbhai also mentioned it. The phrase of choice I'd like to employ here is spiritual bypassing, which is to say that when I heard the question - with everything that is happening in the world, how do you view yourself in a space of love? I think if you allow yourself to grieve about what is, and if you are not in resistance of what is. And if that means you collapse, then you collapse. The thing is that it's not only a Phoenix that rises from the ashes, everything that collapses rises from the ashes. So it is the nature of the beast. And I think just reclaim in your humanity. We kind of have these -you can call it a concrete wall, sometimes a piece of wood, which nothing can penetrate, nothing can reach you. You intellectualize grief and that is spiritual bypassing. So to that end, we need to feel what we need to feel to heal, and we need to heal what we need to heal to feel.
Rohit : Beautiful, Quite remarkable. And I want to present one question from Sanjeev, we don't have a lot of time, but any quick comments, even from one of you or 2 of you before we move to some final closing comments: He's asking that as leaders, we often tend to get just very focused on our primary group whom we are serving. For example, in corporates it is shareholders , how do we diversify not only to include shareholders, but then to include all the stakeholders ? And then I think, to further capture that spirit, I would like to add that not only stakeholders, but today the world we live in is phenomenally more interconnected, very visibly. I think it was always interconnected invisibly, but it is even more visible today, with, for example, the pandemic like Coronavirus. So how do we as leaders, start seeing that? Not in the polarity of "This is my inner circle, whom I have to take care of and this is something outside where I am not responsible." So how do we move away from zero-sum games as a leader, but something which is more, perhaps, good for all? How do we engage in that way as leaders? And how do we step away from polarities?
Yogesh: Can I offer a way?
Rohit: Yes, please.
Yogesh: So Ramana Maharishi has said this, amongst many, many other people: (Ramana Maharshi /ˈrʌmənə ˈməhʌrʃi/ (30 December 1879 – 14 April 1950) was an Indian Hindu sage and jivanmukta (a liberated being). He was born Venkataraman Iyer, but is mostly known by the name Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi. He was born in Tiruchuli, Tamil Nadu, India.)
Two things. One is that there are no others. Right? A.
And B- I am using this word for lack of a better phrase that I have access to at this moment: "The only sin is forgetting". Which is to say that if something is appearing as a zero sum game, you don't have to change it. You have to stop seeing it as a zero sum game. Because in truth, in fact, it is not.
We are conflating perception for projection. You see life as separate and that's why you see it as zero sum game. But if you perceive it rightly, then there no separate existence and hence no point in zero sum games.
Arun has been talking about the "no mind" and the "no I". If you take the Self out of the equation, then there's no zero sum game. If the frame of reference and optimization is this false notion of separate self, then you will want to play 0 sum games.
But, even right now, what is getting created, no one has neutralized what the other person is saying. Everyone is choice-less-ly adding to what the other is saying. So, to see that the zero sum game is a lie, I think that's all.
Arun: Thank you, Yogesh. I would like to build on what you're saying. The only time we have or will ever have is NOW. That's all we'll have! We'll never have anything else. And in this NOW the thing to do is to be compassionate to the person in front of me. To do it now. And, to see that this is my opportunity to give love and to trust life as Amrita is saying. When people will come in front of you in this Now, who need your love, who need your compassion- serve them! Right? And don't be worried about some (future), is it out in, whatever... because this moment is all you have. This moment, here and now, is all you have -- Can I be loving in this? Can I be caring and respectful to the person in front of me, including animals? And can I do it now? Not postpone.
Rohit: Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. Thank you. With that, I would invite you on for any closing comments or any question. Also, perhaps any thoughts you have been holding in your life regarding leadership and love. So any final comments or questions, and then we'll close the call.
Amrita: Let me begin the circle of closing again.
Amrita: So on this auspicious day of the Dussehra, I thank all of you who have created the space, and that we've created it together. For me, I've experienced the essence of both leadership and love in this virtual space that we've created together! Thank you for that.
I just like to end with a real prayer from my heart to your heart. May each and every one of you tread the path of discovering and finding what we call generically, "your spiritual calling, your spiritual path". I would say that's the only path really.
You will find when you start looking, it could be in the form of a song, a book, a spiritual master, whatever supports you to access and reconnect with that sense of Divinity that exists within you. And once you find it, hold onto it, enjoy it, celebrate it, and allow that to manifest in this world, in this beautiful world, in this really short time that we inhabit.
Yogesh: Yes, Amrita: We live in this really short time. It's so short in comparison. So just live it. And if at any point in time, you forget how absolutely divine you are, just get in touch with me and I will remind you!
Arun: Super, super beautiful. Amrita, that is so lovely. And thank you for that lovely reminder. I think I'll just build on it. I think the key is to remember that you are divine, you're sacred, you're infinite and nothing at the same time! You're both infinite that is that infinity and zero that is nothing. And so, you're this mysterious wholeness and nothingness at the same time. Remember that through regular meditation, regularly going inside. And let that love, that infinite love, that infinite peace and silence that you are- let it guide you on what you have to do next. And keep asking the question: "What would love do now? What would love do now? What would joy do now?" Take these baby steps and don't worry about legacies and things. Take these baby steps of love, love, love, and the legacy will happen behind you. Whatever has to happen. So all good wishes to everyone. Enjoy. Be simple. Keep loving people. And give Life the best you have. Thank you.
Yogesh: (Thanks all the guests) A reminder I find useful, I find empowering is just knowing that nothing I do or not do can make me more or less, worthy of love. In other words, everybody from the priest to pedophile deserves the same amount of love. The fact that sometimes the priest is sometimes the pedophile, notwithstanding. So, the fact that we are here on this planet, means that we are worthy of love. It's just a reminder that I have for myself. That's one.
And the second thing is knowing the odds, for example, of a sperm and an egg... Maybe I can play a little game for five seconds... What do you think are the odds of a sperm and egg manifesting in human form? Arun, Rohit, Amrita, can I just quickly get a number from you? What are the odds of a sperm and an egg manifesting in human form?
Arun: One in a few trillion, perhaps?
Yogesh: One in few trillion. Ok. Amrita?
Amrita: I have no idea. I just celebrate every time it manifests. That's it!
Rohit: One in a few billion?
Yogesh: Yeah. It's one in three point four billion. The population of the world is seven billion.
So, which is to say that nothing that we do in this life will need us to beat those odds! Not building a colony on Mars. Not building a vaccine for COVID. You know, the fact that we are here means that we've won the lottery already. Then, go be the force of nature that you already are! And the only thing that can happen to you, is that you can forget. So, you know, there's nothing to create. There's nothing. The only thing that can happen is you forget. And when you forget, may you have yourself to remind yourself, or you may have a community that reminds you that you are the force of nature! Thank you.
Rohit: Beautiful. Thank you, everyone. I'm really delighted and grateful for this conversation that, one in 3.4 billion, multipled by four of us, and multiplied by many behind the scenes volunteers which made this coming together possible! All the manifestations through our audience and their wonderful questions, for coming together and building on this inquiry. Very grateful for all of you from reminding through your life and through your words, the choice which we have in every moment to see beyond the clouds and see the eternal sun, and to make Snowballs in Hell! And, to let our life be an expression of not doing things for the love, but, from love. And holding each other in these small steps, or big steps. Holding ourselves, and each other in that process. Thank you all for showing up in that spirit.
We will close the call with a minute of silence, in gratitude for the numerous conditions which allow us to be together in this space and time. Thank you so much.
(Guests each say goodbye...)
Thank you all.
Thank you. Bye bye.
Yes, lovely morning.
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